MAK Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Some time ago there was a report in LF on this sump baffle, and I think a bulk buy. My 1800 K is not far from needing the sump foam replaced and I wondered what the collective thoughts were on this baffle as an alternative. If it’s effective the need to drop the sump is removed, after installation. Is it effective for enthusiastic road and occasional track day? My car does not have Apollo. and can somebody supply an e-mail address to contact them. MAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 You might find you open up a can of worms here. It seems that some people find it works well, some people find it doesn't. It seems to depend very much on the installation. For what its worth, we have had one fitted for about 2 years now, maybe a bit less, and it has worked very well. We see no evidence of surge whatsoever, and indeed when we took or engine apart a few months ago our bearings were in perfect condition, so in my opinion it has worked well. Others will come along and be far less positive, I have no doubt. It seems to be a bizarrely contentious issue for some, and I cannot believe the actions of some, but hey, but I'm keeping out of that. I guess in conclusion you could sum up and say 'mixed results' over a spread of different users. Apollo tank is certainly worth doing - there have been a few in the For Sale section recently. We fitted one at least 3 years ago, which has no doubt contributed to the good condition of our engine over many many road and track miles. Highly recomend fitting one of these. One of the problems is that some people mistakingly see these products as replacements/alternatives to dry sumps, which they are not. Sump baffle should hopefully help to reduce surge, Apollo helps take air bubbles out of the oil. www.mycaterham.com here 91,000 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregory Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 MAK: I know nothing about the Hellier sump baffle - not a good answer to your question! Try doing a search on TechTalk, I'm sure you'll turn up a few threads. What I do know is there are approximately 150 racing Caterhams (SuperGrads, MegaGrads, Academy, RoadSport B) running with the Apollo tank on all types of circuit, under arduous racing conditions without any oil surge problems. So if you're planning to do trackdays I would get an Apollo tank fitted, if you're planning to run slicks on trackdays then a dry sump system may be necessary. HTH, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I would re-iterate Angus comment re the Apollo. My son lost an engine at Croix last year because of severe oil surge without an Apollo. The new engine has one fitted and the pressure with no Helier fitted or foam for that matter recorded worst cast 2 bar which I think is plenty. Whatever you do at least have the Apollo. It's only a couple of hundred quid or thereabouts and a few hours work to fit. The new engine including everything else like gearbox re-build that we did when the engine was out cost the thick end of £2k so it's really not worth the risk of not having the Apollo. If you fit it yourself look at Angus website as it's got some really helpful advice - all relevant. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 Thanks for the comments I will re-fit my Apollo, which I removed because I didn't like the engine rattle at start-up. Did anybody experience this, or did you avoid this by fitting a flap valve between Apollo and cam cover? Does anyone know web-site/Email for Helier? MAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozz Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I run an Apollo without vent foam or sump foam. On Silkolene Pro S 5W-40 oil pressure is between 4 to 5 bar at anything above tick over and no top end rattles at start up cold or hot. Bozz My Chocolate Orange here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Never really had any noticable rattle on start up with our Apollo. Its a proven solution, so if you have it, I'd certainly fit it!! Hellier here Jason had some issues with his email account for a while (AOL!) - not sure if it is sorted. He won't mind me saying he can be a bugger to get hold of sometimes. Leave a message on his answering machine (he'll probably have a handfull of valves or something) and he should get back to you.... www.mycaterham.com here 91,000 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 MAK, I have one of these Helier jobs that you can purchase from me if you wish. Never been fitted simply because I never got around to it and I'm now going to build a dry sumped engine. If you're interested send me a Blatmail and I'll find it for you when I return from my week away on 19th April. Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 My views and experiences are well-known and well-documented. Won't repeat them here except for the words 'Fish' and 'Hill' Tell you what - if we get a dry day at Anglesey on Good Friday, I'll rig up the bulletcam to read the SPA oil gauge, and we'll see what kind of fluctuation (or not) I get with my baffle and Apollo. Not a mega-G circuit, but not bad either. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Not a mega-G circuit Only 1.2g on std road tyres 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Once again some people are just living in dreamland. The apollo system does nothing to prevent oil surge, how could it. If you are not experiencing oil surge using the apollo you are simply not cornering fast enough or your oil gauge is so damped you don`t see it. Every two or three weeks we have the same old tosh posted. Very boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Only 1.2g on std road tyres Pah! I managed far more than 1.2g last time - didn't bother checking the spec of the tyres that stopped me though... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Rob, to whom is that useful post aimed? Apollo tank is certainly worth doing - there have been a few in the For Sale section recently. We fitted one at least 3 years ago, which has no doubt contributed to the good condition of our engine over many many road and track miles. Highly recomend fitting one of these. One of the problems is that some people mistakingly see these products as replacements/alternatives to dry sumps, which they are not. Sump baffle should hopefully help to reduce surge, Apollo helps take air bubbles out of the oil. www.mycaterham.com here 91,000 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Rob At least your grammar has improved. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Rob I think one can get away with an Apollo as long as the engine is only giving modest power output so the internals aren't heavily loaded and the car is not running super sticky tyres like slicks. Oil surge happens for sure but the oil pump doesn't completely pack up, it's just pumping a two phase mixture of oil and air so the delivery pressure drops. One "gets away with it" on the basis that oil delivery to the engine continues albeit at reduced pressure but de-airated, and the engine is only under part load. I think for "success" the sump has to be absolutely full otherwise total failure of delivery pressure is almost certain. 1g lateral = oil lying at 45 degrees under steady state in the sump so the pick up will only just be covered on a K with a full sump and will be sucking air and oil. Much more than 1g probably means death to the engine. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Mak, Your original question has got lost in yet another debate on the benefits of fitting the apollo tank system. I have examined the Hellier baffle and IMO it must reduce the movement of oil in the sump during hard cornering etc. this can only reduce oil surge, how effective it is open to question. The foam baffle is only installed to reduce windage as the caterham wet sump is quite shallow. Angus, sorry if I rattled your cage, as you will have noted from my previous posts I am not a fan of the apollo tank system. I ran one on my first 7 for two years and had the following problems:- 1. no oil pressure on start up for 3 plus secs, dependant on how long the car had stood , how much oil had drained back into the sump. 2. 13-15 miles to reach operating temp for the oil. 3. when cruising oil temps would continue to rise 100c plus 4. difficult to re-fill the apollo following an oil change. 5. added weight and compexity/cost I am aware that I could have fitted a one way valve to stop the oil returning to the sump and a laminova to help control oil temps Plus points, 1. it did help de-aeriate the oil and stop the K tappet death rattle. 2. 7L of engine oil must be an advantage Would I fit the apollo on my car , NO. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Rob, I can see all the arguments against the Apollo and agree that a dry sump is the ultimate answer, however the Apollos ability to continue to deliver air free oil (albeit at reduced pressure) when the sump is suffering from surge makes it a wortwhile addition. In my experience of tearing down a large number of Caterham K series engines *most* engines with Apollos fitted do not suffer damage to the big ends, whereas *most* engines not fitted with Apollos do suffer damage to the big ends. Although this is not conclusive , the sheer weight of evidence I have collected leads me to believe that the Apollo (when fitted with a one-way valve) is a sensible addition to a K series. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Oily - assume the one-way valve is just to keep the Apollo tank charged so that oil pressure is achieved quicker on start up? C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Fair enough Rob - I had not realised you had had problems, all any of us can do is report our own experiences. Its up to others to form their own conclusions. Cage isn't rattled, I just thought that you were implying that the description of what an Apollo should do, or how they should work, was wrong - I always stand to be corrected. Evidence from people such as Oily, who get to look at the internals of hundreds of engines with a far greater knowledge of what they are looking at, are equally important in forming conclusions. I also get the impression that despite identical specs, it seems that every engine is slightly different in the way it works, the way its oil flows, the way it responds to cooling etc etc, which of course makes it even harder to generalise!! - all IMO. www.mycaterham.com here 91,000 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 David W.. Yup.. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Oily, Do you have any thoughts on what causes the excessive oil temperatures when cruising with the apollo fitted and no laminova ? Higher oil level in the sump " increased windage"or the positioning of the apollo tank directly in the exhausted hot air flow from the rad. I have seen 120C. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozz Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Interesting this 'coz so far I've not seen oil temps any higher than my coolant temperature even when cruising or 'pressing on' 😬 and certainly nothing like 120 degrees. In fact the biggest problem is getting the oil warm and keeping it warm . Any air flow through the rad seems to have a dramatic effect on reducing the oil temp. Maybe I should drive it harder 😬 Bozz My Chocolate Orange here Edited by - Bozz on 12 Apr 2006 10:48:42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_C Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Rob I'm puzzled that you have issues with oil temp and an Apollo. I've just added oil temp to my 7, and last night at about 7 degrees ambient the oil was up to an indicated 75 ish after 5 miles, the same temp as the water. I've yet to see a water temp above 80 even on track, though at that time I didn't have the oil temp enabled. My car is standard Academy spec though, so is only 120bhp. Cheers Tom FH54WLX - only the car supports ManU, honest! see here Edited by - Tom_C on 12 Apr 2006 11:33:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange7 Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Rob, Same here. After fitting Apollo the oil temp reduced a few degrees (on a 1.8k ~140hp) - seems to me that there has to be an additional cooling effect over the surface of the pipes and tanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Rob - I had the same symptoms as you and spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get to the bottom of it. In the end concluded it was bad earthing in the car or similar but never fixed it. Had issues with the oil pressure too so dumped the Cat oil pressure gauge and fitted a dual press/temp raceco mechanical gauge. Both problems went away immediately. Without any auxilliary oil coolers the oil temp hits about 100C on track, and follows the water temp on the road. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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