How safe are airbags for kids ?

[Simos]

Ok, no Sevens content, even an SV doesn't have an airbag. But a lot of you have kids...

 

I have a Passat with passenger airbag and with the arrival of the second sprog had to move around the child seats. Previously his lordship was in one of the back seats but that means the new rear-facing is a real pain to fix in the middle which is safer. So I got to thinking about the relative risks.

 

ALL the documentation says never put ANY childseat in a front seat with an airbag.

 

BUT

a) He has a front facing seat not rear facing - I can understand rear facing and have no argument with that.

b) Is over two and is no lightweight

c) The seat is set all the way back

d) The airbag is a full floor to ceiling jobbie not a wheel bag which is top chest/head only and comes at you so-to-speak from the centre of the wheel.

e) This is European not American which supposedly go of like H-bombs.

f) If I don't put him in the front I compromise the saftey of the baby who will have to go in a door seat rather than the middle putting her well inside the crumple zone of a side impact which puts her at a very real risk in a very common accident.

 

So i thought, why is it more dangerous for him than not having the bag. If he's flung around so much he actually touches it (2-3 ft) it's probably all over anyhow. If he did where's the danger - why is it good for me and bad for him. Yes there's a difference in size 2 1/2 vs 10 stone but so what ? How can it be worse than hitting the screen of dashboard no matter how big you are.

 

So in summary and given my cynicism of any one-size-fits-all rule I decided they're all talking bollocks and put him in the front seat.

 

Now you're all intelligent people (even the ones with Wussfields teeth.gif) so am I as negligent as a social worker or is my reasoning sound ?

 

Cheers, Simon.

[Jam Mad]

if anything i'd say his smaller size made an airbag pointless, since he the likelihood that the belt doesn't catch him is negligable.

[CHRIS CLARK]

'Phone call to V W ?

[Brad Tipp]

It seems a silly question, but can't you turn off the airbag in the front? That way you can put him in with no worries.

 

 

T 1 PPB - Superlight

 

"Well yes officer I'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..."

[Tony Martyr]

There are lots of papers on this subject most published through SAE. They make very nasty reading.

The general advise that is given by hire companies etc in your case is to switch the airbag off if a child seat is mounted. My Alfa has a switch for this operated by the ignition key and the handbook gives this advice.

The child fatalities in general are caused, or have been caused either by the casement (plastic cover) or the child's head being deflected into the door by the bag. The adult goes into the bag but the child bounces or glances off. The airbag discharge is quite violent and optimised for an adult. If in doubt get VW advice they must have a policy worked out.

[millsn]

I was present on a test at 30mph on a Rover 400 into the usual stationary wall. The impact has to be heard to be believed. They (we) had a Rover baby seat on test which was designed to deal with impact in this car and other Rovers: you just would not believe the movement experienced by the baby seat alone. Bear in mind that the seat is not fixed only placed on the normal carseat. The babyseat is likely to submarine i.e. plunge downward in an impact as the front or rear seats are naturally quite soft o comfort. If this happens it throws your baby (or adult for that matter) further forward than it would in a rigid caterham race type seat. As a guide, our 'baby' amazingly still hit the dashboard(although fairly gently). The seatbelts themelves will stretch several inches and are designed to give under the weight of the adult. Main consideration however is probably not even that the baby will hit the dash (although any contact with the airbag is bad news). It is the deceleration which is the problem. It is to achieve this deceleration requirement which targetted when engineering the car to deal with accidents. If the baby is decelerated by anything that is designed to decelerate an adult it is likely that its brain will be turned to so much mashed potato on impact.

I would advise a new baby seat if you still have room in the rear and not to put your loved one in the front if you still want the airbag to operate. Get another rear facer and you're doing even better because the baby has little chance to accelerate his head relative to the speed of the car (just how our harnesses work by attaching us to the car and letting it absorb all the energy) meaning that equally his head has to decelerate less when it hits something. As to the 'disadvantage' of side impact the same would be true if sited in the front seat but nonetheless it is more likely that the car will crush at the centre of the car on a Passat to improve side impact performance as it will have been designed that way.

One final point (long winded isn't it), don't use lap belts for children before puberty as they have not developed their pelvic ears (I think that's what they're called). It is this lobes on the pelvis that the lap belts locate upon in an accident. I tis possibl that a child's spine gets snapped or damaged if only located by this means. Use the 3 point (or more) belts in the other seats instead. Hope this helps.

 

Nigel Mills - 2.0 Zetec carbs

[Red SLR]

Some cars now have some sort of perminant child seat fixings, cant remember which maker but I am sure it is called ISOFIX or something like.

 

X777CAT

[Jam Mad]

wow nigel... this only highlights a worry of mine...

 

when an aircraft crashes, a the results of an enquiry are published publically, so that we can all learn from the accident.

 

when a car crashes, we never hear anything. i never knew that about lap belts, but it makes me wonder how much more crucial info we're never told about car safety.

 

j

[John Fossey]

 

From my days as a brand manager for M-Benz we offered the following advise:

 

Never place rear facing seats in the front seat of the car unless the airbag is switched off. However M-Benz at the time did not offer or recommend their dealers to disconnect the airbag due to product liability issues on resale i.e. what happens if the car is sold and subsequently has a crash where the airbag doesn't go off. In the M-B case they developed branded car seats with Britax that had transponders that connected to the passenger seat to automatically switch the airbag off (they have a pressure sensor as well to detect if the seat is occupied - anything under c.4kg would not trigger the airbag)

 

I don't know if other manufacturers ave the same or similar set-ups. Many do just have a key activated off switch.

 

As far as forward facing seats are concerned the recommendation was still to place seats in the rear of the car although again there was a brand specific seat available with the same functionality.

 

However of placed in the front seat the risk to the child from the front passenger airbag is much reduced, if as detailed in another posting the seat is set well back etc.

 

American airbags have a much faster inflation rate, and are deployed at a lower speed threshold simply because the majority of the US public don't wear seatbelts.

 

Side impact bags are potentially a greater hazard as they are designed to protect a person sitting in a "normal" position. Sometimes not the case with young children.

 

A lot of info, I know. My advice is to contact Audi either customer services or, if you can aftersales marketing. See if they have an in-house solution - I would be suprised if they haven't (it may cost). They may also hold list of recommended seats.