Brucey Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 O.k, the other thread was getting a bit long ❗ My 1993 1400Kss failed its MOT today on emissions ☹️ (Computer said "NO") The CO level @ 1018 rpm is 3.9%. Max allowed is 0.5% CO (0.05%), HC(57ppm) and lambada (1.01) @ 2841 rpm all passed 6th digit of VIN No is 'F' and the car has an internal exhaust with a cat. I phoned CC and they confirmed it was one of the few factory cars built late 1993. The MOT station computer pulled out 'standard cat test', so I guess that rules out changing the exhaust to a side exit one without a cat at a later date ☹️ I'm not really trying to find excuses for trying to get away with a visible smoke test as the car must have passed the cat test on numerous previous occasions, but any advise on how to get it through would be appreciated. I left it at the MOT garage as they said they would try to plug it in to their diagnostic kit to see what the problem is. I'm assuming it's running too rich at tick over (I haven't even fitted my vernier pulleys yet!) as the CO went up considerably at lower revs . I can't think of anything I can do myself without the kit to measure CO. Bruce. Update 1 07/04/06 Popped in to visit my car at the garage today ☹️ The guys I'm dealing with is trying his best but seems to be struggling. He thinks the Lambada sensor is switching o.k and has checked for air leaks around the plenum chamber (thinks the air flow reading is a bit low at idle?) He looked at the cam timing and thinks the inlet may be about 1/2 a tooth out, but this hasn't been changed from the last MOT. (Oily was right, I'll be fitting my verniers asap). He has checked the injector timing and dwell which was o.k., but somebody else mentioned that it may be getting 2 squirts instead of 1? He also clamped a vacuum pipe (inlet to ecu?) and checked the pipe to the charcol filter. Both gave the results he was expecting. I'm afraid it's all going over my head a bit as this is the first petrol car I've owned that has been fitted with fuel injection, an ECU and a cat Bring back the old days of my Mk1 Lotus Cortina. At least you could see when the petrol was comming out of the twin 40's 😬 I will now check though the old receipts I got with the car to see if it has failed in the past on anything similar. Any more ideas of causes would be gratefully received. Edited by - brucey on 4 Apr 2006 00:10:03 Edited by - brucey on 7 Apr 2006 21:52:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 The usual answer to this seems to be to give the car a good thrashing before you get there to make sure it's all hot enough. Beyond that I guess you are either looking for something obviously wrong (ie dead cat) or for a "work around" ie an Emerald with an MOT specific map 😬 Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 I do not believe should even have had a test for a pre 98 car Look in the FAQ MOT / emissions at the top of the page to confirm this. The testing stations are still feeling there way through the changes, and as you know people will always believe the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Technically its a type approved car (hence the letter F in the VIN rather than K) just like a your average hatchback so if its post august 1st (i.e. a K reg) then it should have a cat fitted. The fast idle result looks like the cats working, I hope you find the problem quickly. Two points - 1. I didn't think you needed to pass natural idle if it went through on fast...? Or is it that at fast idle you have a second chance... 2. Isn't the idle speed too high? Surely it should idle at about 850-900? Was it stinking hot when you tested it? BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucey Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 Tom, The FAQ section says: For cars first used after 1st August 1992 you have to check the 6th, 8th and 9th characters of the VIN plate, covering all k-series and Vauxhall XE cars. All these cars should have been fitted with catalysts and will only meet the test criteria if the catalyst equipment is fitted and is working correctly. These tests are applicable for post 1st August 1992 factory cars and for post 1st August 1998 amateur built cars: As mine is a 1993 factory built car, I guess it requires a cat test ☹️ QED On the bright side, the re-sale value of a factory built car is higher 😬 Bob, I'm not sure how your meant to get it stinking hot! It sat in the waiting area for 30 mins before its MOT. After he had punched all the details in the computer and printed the test sheet, another 15 mins had gone. To give him credit, when it failed the automatic test, he ran it again, putting a temp probe down the dip stick hole to check the oil temp (75 deg?). It sat on tickover until the fan kicked in at 95 deg C. The brake test was good fun though, I pressed the pedals for him, which was o.k until I decided to 'go for broke' on the handbrake test and pulled it as hard as I possibly could. I then spent an embassasing 3 minutes trying to release it again! to make matters worse, he said 'now do it again for the other side'! I guess it will get nice and hot after all the mechanics have taken it for a test drive! (I hope they take their toetectors off first!) Bruce. Edited by - Brucey on 3 Apr 2006 22:44:22 Edited by - Brucey on 3 Apr 2006 22:45:26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Hmmm, the engine was sure hot but the cat and lambda sensor may not have been. When idling the gas flow thru the cat can be too low and the temperature can drop below the critcal values for the lambda sensor to be generating a signal and the cat to be reacting. Anyway, if it was running 4% CO the closed loop control wasn't doing its job and the cat couldn't do anything anyway. First thing is to check you are getting a signal from the lambda sensor - ideally switching from 0.3V to 0.8V once a second ish. If it stays constant then the ECU isn't able to vary the fuelling enough as its pegged on its limit. I think rich is a high voltage lean is a low voltage so it will probably be saying 0.8V? If it is working while/immediately after you've driven the car and then stops after extended idling then it looks like its just getting too cold. If its a two wire sensor then it has no internal heater, if its a three or four wire sensor then it should have its own electrical heater which could be broken. I think the black/white should give a signal and the two grey wires should be the heating element. If thats all working then its something else... The ECU either thinks the air pressure is too high (leak in the vacuum hose from the plenum via the flame trap to the ECU) and overfuels to match? The fuel pressure is too high (adjustable fuel pressure reg set wrong/blocked) or maybe the return hose is crimped down flat with a over done hose clamp. Or the ECU thinks the engine is cold (duff coolant temp sensor) and is enriching still? The throttle pot is on the blink and the engine thinks its on the move. The 1018rpm thing is the worry, I think the ECU doesn't know its meant to be idling? Have you tried the TPS reset routine? IGN ON, five slow throttle sweeps to full open and shut again and then key off. That should tell the ECU to learn where the throttle limits are... I hope you find it quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Bruce Sorry to hear about your emission woes. I 'm not sure I have an answer, but interestingly my car is a 1400cc 1994 factory built car (confirmed by CC and used as a demonstrator) but the 6th VIN digit is 'K' . Passed the MOT test on Saturday with a smoke test only. I was worried about the new MOT and which emissions test would apply, as this is a re-engined car with an 1800. Seems the VIN numbering is inconsistent. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucey Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 Bob, Thanks for the useful info. The garage said they will plug it into their diagnostics machine and I guess some of the things you mention will be checked.(I don't think my digital multimeter is up to testing lambada sensors!) If they have no luck, at least I've got a starting point for things I can check myself. This is the first MOT since I've had the 7. I've been driving 205 diesels for the last 16 years! These are much more simple come MOT time. After chucking injector cleaner in and thrashing it up and down the motorway, they either pass or blow up! Do you consider 1018rpm a bit fast for idling? Interestingly the idle does fluctuate sometimes, but I was told 'they all do that'. Malcombe, All I can say is 'you jammy git!' (in a nice way). Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 I was thinking as I drove back up the M6 to Scottingland on Sunday after having prepped my 7 for MOT next week... ...being as I informed the DVLA that I have a 1.8 fitted instead of a 1.6, what the hell are they going to ask me to test against? I wonder if this will work for me or against me... Oooh, just a few days until I find out... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicky Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Mine is a 97 K Series and did not need an emissions test - it has never had a cat....passed MOT with flying colours. Something strange going on here amongst MOT stations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash.Bailey Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 there is nothing stange going on - simply that the year of manufacture and if it was factory built or amature determines what emissions level is required . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucey Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 Dicky, I think a lot of this boils down to wheather you own a kit built or factory built car. It seems that even some of the factory built cars were identified as kit built. As my car is identified as factory built, it required a cat (even in 1993) which is fair enough. In my opinion, the introduction of checking the details against the main database has just removed some of the 'flexibility' the MOT stations had. My car always should have had a cat test. Now I've just got to get it to pass! Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartmoor7 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Anyone owning a pre-SVA 7 with the 6th VIN digit 'C' for 'Component' had a computerised test yet? If so, did it test as amateur kit or not? Jerry Parker L7 SVN 1400 Supersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Shoot, my car is factory built and I'm damned sure the cat is not working anymore. Has always been done on visible smoke previously *thumbdown* 🙆🏻 Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Rich_Bernie Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Jerry Yes - my car was MOT'd in January (93 K series) using the new system. We had some problems getting it onto the computer since it is a 1400K series which was fitted with a 1600K engine when the 1600 became available in Caterhams. The computer seems to look at year of (amateur) manufacture and engine size - and tere weren't any 93 1600 K series cars. There were over 100 variants of Caterham on the list, and about 10 with a 1588cc engine. Eventaully they got it on, and confirmed visible smoke test only. Things were made more dificult because the previous MOT we were reading the chassis number from was wrong (one digit missing when the previous years tester had copied off the chassis plate). The computerised chaos meant the tester had wasted most of the allocated time for the test, and with the next car waiting to come in the MOT took all of 5 minutes..... I assume that now it is on the system things will be easier next year. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Hi Jerry I've been watching this thread as my car is a much modified Componant car from 1994. Strictly speaking all cars with a K or a C as the 6th digit should be identified as amateur built cars; let's hope the DVLA/VOSA computer link realises this. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 EU3 SS ECU gives a natural idle in the 1050-1100 region (dash tacho readout) so I wouldn't be concerned about the idle speed. It just seems to be one of the tricks that Rover/PTP used to get a smoother, less flaky idle with the SS cams. Ian Green and Silver Roadsport 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucey Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 Ian, Thanks for that info. My 7 has always idled at around 1000rpm since I've had it, although it sometimes fluctuates upwards a bit (usually after a 'spirited' drive). I did have a problem with it stalling on the overrun soon after I bought it (about a year ago), but this was sorted by fitting small jubilee clips to the vacuum pipe running from the inlet manifold to the ECU as the pipe was quite loose with just cable ties fitted. I have replaced the 88 deg stat for an 82 deg one, but I cant see that affecting the cat temp especially as the water temp still goes to 95 deg before the fan kicks in if left to idle long enough. Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartmoor7 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 >>Strictly speaking all cars with a K or a C as the 6th digit should be >>identified as amateur built cars; let's hope the DVLA/VOSA computer link >>realises this. Jonathan/Mick, thanks for replies; my concern, like yours Mick, is that the computer has been programmed with enough info. Jerry Parker L7 SVN 1400 Supersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 More info anc concerns re emissions & MOT's here. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Bruce, colder 'stat "may" affect the mapping/emissions "if" it is not getting above the cold start compensation temperature but if the fan is kicking in at 96 deg that shouldn't be a problem. My EU3 car has a better idle characteristic when the idle screw is opened up so that the IACV has less work to do in controlling the idle. This also stops the tendency to 'drive on' when you ease off the accelerator due to the IACV trying to dampen the decrease in revs. It may be worth opening the idle stop a little then resetting the ECU? Ian Green and Silver Roadsport 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucey Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 Ian, Thanks for that info. Which ones the idle screw? I have a forward facing air cleaner (super sport) with an ally plenum chamber. Would I set the idle faster (say 1200 rpm) with the engine running & hot, then reset the ECU? Would any of this affect the emissions at idle, or is this something to try after I've got it through the MOT? Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Not familiar with the throttle stop screw on that setup but it should be clear which screw stops the butterfly closing any further. With a non programmable ECU you will not be able to change the idle speed it is trying to maintain. That is part of the mapping. If you gradually open the throttle stop (engine running) the engine will maintain it's idle then will suddenly jump up to around 2000rpm. You need it to be just below this point then reset the ECU so it knows where the throttle pot 'closed' position is. Setting the idle in this way seems to make the ECU control the idle on fuel and ignigtion trims rather than using the IACV which can be a bit too slow sometimes on SS cams if the idle is unstable. This is how I got the friendliest setup to live with on my car and mine recently passed a MoT comfortably. As you said, no way to tell what this is doing to emissions without the probe up the pipe. Out of interest, my tester did the fast idle test first - then let it drop to natural idle. Is this what everyone else is finding or is there a variaton in how the tests are carried out? Ian Green and Silver Roadsport 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucey Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 See edited original topic. Bruce Edited by - Brucey on 8 Apr 2006 00:06:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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