Simon Owen Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Dear All, Recently purchased a 2003 VVC with the Minister 170 conversion, whilst the engine isn't as sweet as my previous 1400ss the performance is great and the car seems to have a good spread of power / torque accross the rev range. The car is wet sump and does not have an Apollo fitted. I have booked on the Oulton Park club day and intend to fit an Apollo prior to this (interestingley I have been quoted anything from £340+vat to £600+vat for supply & fit local to the NW . . .aghhh !) A couple of questions though . . . . . . 1. what is the general view on the engine suitability / reliability for occasional track days (say 1 to 3 per year max and in the 'begginers' section !! - 15" CR500 currently fitted ) 2. Are there lots of VVC's out there completing the occasional track days without any problems, you only tend to hear about the pitfalls ? 3. Long term I will consider dry sump etc but at the moment this is obviously a costly option, is this really necessary for the use decribed above ? 4. Engine - the Minister conversion tweaks the head and valves etc whilst retaining the VVC mechanism and hydraulic tappets etc (I think!!). I am happy with the performance but longer term would removal of the VVC mechanism and hydraulic tappets etc be a worthwhile, looking at DVA's kit this would also up the output closer to 180BHP ? I am delighted with the car but am just a little concerned about getting the track day bug and what if anything would be sensible to amend in terms of the engine specification etc ?? Am I worrying about nothing, if so then great and I'll just get on with enjoying the car !! Your thoughts, views and experiences would be much appreciated. Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahey Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The current r300 is vvc power so i guess they must be suitable for track use. I wouldn't spend so much money on an apollo thou - frm what I have heard they are fairly simple to fit - locl garage or yourself should manage. If you are talking over £350 to have one stuck on I would be seriously considering the new cc dry sump for just over a grand. It's what credit cards were designed for. I can't see you not getting the bug to be honest - in fact, I don't really see the point of having a caterham without taking it on track - it's what they are for. You will have fun I am sure and Oulton is a lovely circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Simon, If you buy the bits, there are enough of us around to help you fit it. It really is not difficult. Takes about 3 hours. I've done 4 or 5 fitments to people cars now and it is quite straight forward. If you get the trackday bug you can upgrade later to dry sump etc. There are plenty of VVC cars out there regularly doing trackdays, so I would not be worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinstripe pete Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I would definitely fit the Apollo. The CR500s are going to generate some serious grip in the corners which would surely lead to oil surge in the sump. I've heard of one or two horror stories about wet-sumped-non-apollo'd-with-grippy-tyres K series Caterhams suffering big-end damage. I can't imagine the VVC mechanism would enjoy being deprived of lubrication momentarily. ISTR that the dry sump is only seriously recommended if you have slicks, allowing you to generate a serious number of g's in the corner. 'Be generous in bed. Share your sandwiches' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Owen Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 Mav - thanks for the offer, I will probably order the bits from Caterham over the next couple of weeks and get in touch - any help would be M U C H appreciated and certainly be followed by a donation to NTL !! Also now that I have a car again I will be along to some of the meets soon !! Currently going through the 'pi**** of with minor niggles' stage, the usual stuff - battery problems and an OP sender that appears to be totally useless which bugs me no end - new SPA analogue gauge to be fitted soon - hopefully this will be a simple job that I can manage without assistance !! Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Pinstripe Pete you are under the wrong impression if you think the Apollo Tank does anything to prevent oil surge it does nothing. It is a simple oil/ air separater. Its design is to remove air bubbles from the oil, this function it does well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinstripe pete Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Absolutely; oil surge is a problem if you're still using a wet sump with or without an Apollo, but doesn't the Apollo still continue to provide some lubrication under hard cornering? 'Be generous in bed. Share your sandwiches' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted March 16, 2006 Area Representative Share Posted March 16, 2006 but doesn't the Apollo still continue to provide some lubrication under hard cornering? No - If the oil pick up is not submerged in oil, then you won't get oil pressure! The Apollo does not act as an accumlilator like, I believe, the "Acusump"(??) does or did - I can't say I've seen one, but the principle is that there is a tank a little like an Apollo, that then has a pressurised bladder inside. When oil pressure is built up, initially, the bladder is compressed. I oil pressure feeding the engine dips below the pressure in the tank, the bladder wilh provided pressure for a short time to bridge the dip in pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Pinstripe Pete, The apollo system has nothing to do with the way in which oil is picked up to supply the oil pump. Therefore oil surge during hard cornering/braking is the same as with the wet sump. The K engine has the unwanted property of creating a lot of air bubbles in the oil when using high revs, this is possibly due to the shallow sump design and high oil level within the engine or oil retained within the head as the engine is canted over, the apollo is designed to remove these bubbles and vent into the cam cover. If you run without an apollo on track its possible to get air into the hydraulic cam followers and the top end of the engine will sound very tappety. Its also undesirable to have air bubbles pumped through the main and big end bearings under load. The only answer to oil surge is a properly designed drysump system or acusump or clever sump baffling , go slow around corners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinstripe pete Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Thanks for the clarification! 'Be generous in bed. Share your sandwiches' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micksmetafors Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Pete, The only engine I have ever needed to dry sump is the VVC which is now in my car. I guess because it's mounted on a slant at a greater angle than a standard head together with the VVC mechanisms. The old car with a warmed up standard engine, same tyres & driving never oil surged but this VVC was horrific. Since dry sumping I have had no problem. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1968 Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 OK im confused now if this is statement is true: "....if you think the Apollo Tank does anything to prevent oil surge it does nothing. It is a simple oil/ air separater. Its design is to remove air bubbles from the oil, this function it does well." Caterham state the apollo is sufficient protection for track work for all treaded tyres. also in a recent thread lots of people on this site suggested that they would be happy with an apollo on track with treaded tyres but definitly not without an appollo.....also the grads all use apollow and 48s with (apparantly ) no problems so if the apollo has no effect on this problem as stated above why do all these people inc CC recomment it for track days? I only ask as im in a similar dilema as Simon in that I have an apollo and use 021s on track (VHPD engine) and had avoided 048s etc as I understood a dry sump is necessary for those tyres but i cant afford that at present... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Owen Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Steve, What did you notice on track ? Regular loss of oil pressure when cornering ? What type of gauge did you have fitted, I am about to fit a SPA analogue gauge with new sender etc. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Why are you still confused? Think about the problem, ignore what retailers have told you, its simple enough. If the oil pickup is interrupted during cornering you will get surge end of story. There are several reasons why a simple apollo is specified in grad racing , mainly on cost grounds. Not wishing to confuse you further but the VVC is more likely to suffer top end damage than the normal K derivatives as oil pressure is used in the operation of the VVC mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1968 Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Rob, the reason im still confused is that its not just retailers stating this but other blatchatters. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I question your comment of "whilst the engine isn't as sweet as my previous 1400ss the performance is great". Why isn't it as sweet? What is involved in the minster conversion? To put perspective on problems with a VVC...I have just spent time and money fixing mine due to oil starvation problems....why drive it on the edge of what is safe? You put a seat belt on to protect you, so do the same for the engine! Apollo (in my opinion) is pretty cr@p other than for taking the air out....dry sump it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Owen Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Kevsta, You raise an interesting question regarding the meaning of 'sweet' in reference to an engine etc. No need to debate here as I think we all know what it means, the comments in reference to my previous car (1400ss) are merely my opinion - putting performance to one side the differences are subtle but interesting all the same. The Minister conversion involves : modified inlet manifold assembly, bespoke valves, modified cylinder head and air filter etc. I had nothing to do with the conversion and to be honest do not know how it would compare with a standard VVC - it would be very interesting to compare a standard VVC back to back with my car ? Dry sump - it is interesting to note all the comments !! Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Interesting to see comments on Apollo I had one fitted to my 1800 140 BHP K series and was less than impressed. Firstly every start up from cold was accompanied by top end engine rattle and I would be surprised if this had no adverse affect on engine life.- I think it is supposed to be possible to add a non-return valve. Plus it was realy difficult to prime the engine after an oil change and resulted in some worrying time waiting for oil pressure to return. I suspect the correct solution is Dry Sump. MAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Well - the 21's most reliable engine to date has been the VVC (trophy 160) engine. It has now done 7 trackdays in a year and probably 17,000 miles and is loving it. I DO have an apollo tank and am running on as sticky tyres as i can on the 16 rims and it's been fine on trackdays. knockhill, anglesey, croix, curborough, donington it seemed fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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