The Pied Piper Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 I thought I'd ask you Caterham lads for some advise.... this ones a bit unusual, but right up your street! Here goes...............(sorry, it's not a Caterham!)......... I've fitted a 1600 K in the front of a MK3 Escort rally car on the ford gearbox (FWD) to replace the old crossflow, same old story, just a different vehicle! Questions are: 1.how much power does a standard 1600 give. 2.would upgrading it first to supersport spec yield 130BHP? is this a Caterham Mems Ecu + cams?? I would imagine there must be plenty available? 3.As funds permit we intend to use DTH injection with a DTA Ecu. How much power will this alone develop? 4. What cams will work with no head or piston mods along with the DTH/DTA? 5. Should we bin the standard exhaust manifold or is it OK until DTH fitted or would a 4:2:1 work better right from the start? 6. how much power can we get with head mods and cams (but no steel bits), how do the standard pistons fair or do you need omegas? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, (I have looked at the Dave Andrews info but mostly seems to refer to 1800cc K.) Many thanks in anticipation.... The Pied Piper Edited by - The Pied Piper on 6 Jan 2002 00:22:38 Edited by - The Pied Piper on 6 Jan 2002 00:28:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 In stock form the 1600K gives around 115-120BHP, the SS cams and ECU can raise this to around 135, if you are going to the trouble of fitting DTH bodies, then you should use a bit more cam than the SS, maybe the Piper BP285Hs, if you just fit the bodies with the SS cams and programmable ECU then I would expect to see around the 145BHP level. You dont need piston mods until the cams are quite extreme, even the 1227s (R500 cams) have just sufficient clearance if correctly timed with stock pistons, however the BP285s are about as far as you will want to go with a stock head, these together with the DTH TBs and programable ECU should give around 155-160BHP and reasonable torque. Get a good 4-2-1 manifold, it brings the mid range torque up nicely, but dont go too large on the primaries. With head mods (big valve), Piper 740 cams with converted followers, DTHs and a decent exhaust you should make 180-185 and this is acheivable on a stock bottom end if you limit your RPM to around 7800, any more RPM and you will need the Omegas. For peace of mind you should consider fitting these anyway. With forged pistons 8000 ish is fairly safe, for more RPM, the rods and crank really should go steel. Ultimately well over 200BHP is acheivable but you will need some RPM to acheive it. All the info on Dave's site is relevant to the 1600K also, the only difference is the change in stroke, there is an RR plot of a modified 1600K at the foot of his page which is modifed to 180 spec along the lines detailed above. It makes around 180BHP at 7500 and 130ft/lb. The head on that one is conservatively ported, with some more work both the torque and BHP could be improved. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pied Piper Posted January 6, 2002 Author Share Posted January 6, 2002 Thanks Oilyhands, Thats just the info I needed, I think I read an article in CCC by Dave Walker recently suggesting that he had tried some new cams, DTH and no head mods and was seeing 160BHP. That would be excellent as the old X/Flow was giving 105Bhp @ wheels max and the K is much lighter. Car should turn in better and be more agile. Will the Piper BH285s go in with the standard valve springs or are better ones reqd? I assume verniers will be needed or can I modify the Rover ones? offset key or just friction fit? I assume this is a hydraulic profile? What about before we get the DTH, how about 285 cam, DTA Ecu but using standard plastic plenum & Throttle body mapped off the pot? This would seem to be a reasonable first step without buying unnecessary things like Mems ecu etc (we will need the DTA anyway ultimately and we already have the std plenum on the engine) What about the head? Will a VVC head in standard form (without VVC bit) lower the compression ratio? is the combustion chamber bigger for the 1800? I note the CR is only 9.5:1 on the 1600, what about raising this? Is a standard 1800 head better/bigger valves than the 1600? Many thanks anyway for the info.... The Pied Piper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pied Piper Posted January 6, 2002 Author Share Posted January 6, 2002 Just thought of another question! What to do with the sump to combat oil surge. With this engine being mounted transversely this might be worse than in a Caterham. The present sump is the standard Rover 200 steel item, I'm not sure what existing baffle arrangement is inside, is it worth adding some foam in the oil pickup pipe end of the sump to try and retain oil? We don't really want to go to the trouble of dry-sumping at this stage. Rear wheel drive is best! (but sometimes 4WD is better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 The BP285H cams will need piper springs, but DWs 633 profiles dont. You can modify the standard sprockets or use offset dowels (they dont use keyways), but verniers are much more convenient when adjusting cam timing. Personally I would go for the Emerald ECU, maps are far more available and so is a wealth of experience of using the ECU on the K series, the software and cable are included in the price too. The 285H cams will work with just a *modified* plenum and ECU, but the idle wont be perfect, especially on a 1.6. The VVC head has the same (or as near as dammit the same) combustion chamber volume as the K16, so your CR should be unduly affected, I would lick the head over a bit because most VVC heads suffer much more than the K16 with poor production engineering. Misalgined seat inserts, recession within the combustion chambers and machine shifts everywhere are commonplace, a light fettle to get rid of these mis-alignments and some work on the valves will pay dividends. The CR on the 1600 should be 10.5:1, the 1600 and 1800 heads are identical. The CR is corrected on the 1800 by having the pistons 1.4mm further down the bore at TDC. The K suffers badly with oil surge and consequent damage, a dry sump is the only near reliable solution. There is a section on oiling on Dave As K page. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 6 Jan 2002 19:31:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Oily has missed the point regarding the sump. The k-series only suffers from surge so badly with the very shallow sumps fitted on the Caterham installations. With a standard Rover sump you will have far fewer problems. The people to talk to about oil surge are people who have spent a lot of time converting Elises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 hi Peter, Even with the stock Rover sump you'll quickly run into problems, its largely unbaffled and not really designed to cope with the lateral 'G' it will feel in a fore/aft installation, not many sumps are. At best it'll need clever baffling, at worst a small trapdoored compartment round the pickcup, pickup height from the sump floor should be made closer too. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 7 Jan 2002 12:06:33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 I've fitted a 1600 K in the front of a MK3 Escort rally car on the ford gearbox (FWD)id=red> to replace the old crossflow, same old story, just a different vehicle! Methinks Mr Oily is skim reading............wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Cripes.. I missed the MK3.. read it as MK2.. (shuffles awkwardly from foot to foot). Even so , oil surge may well be a problem, having had experience of lots of FWD vehicles and the attendant problem, careful baffling would be very sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Blatman, The car Martin is working on is indeed a MK3 Escort FWD which did run a x/flow. The box is a FWD Ford unit and is mated via an adaptor plate...as it will be with the K. Just to put you in the picture Martins current rally car is his "Roveru"...it's a New Rover 25 shell running on Imprezza running gear, with touring car spec. VX motor and Quaiffe sequential 6 speed dog box driving rear wheels. It's been featured in more mags than I can remember and is a completely home built and successful piece of kit....he is known locally for well built and unusual creations. His Zetec powered 7 which he built was also one of the nicest I've seen. Oily's help is being well recieved by Martin (his first dabble with a K) who will no doubt thank Oily when he's back near the PC. Thought I'd just post this in case Martin is being misunderstood in some quarters. Cheers, Kenny HPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 No problem wink.gif I seem to recall seeing the "Roveru" in CCC sometime. Must check my archive................thumbsup.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 No probs Blatman.....hope you're still up for a meet on Friday. Kenny HPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Definitely. It sounded like you need feeding, so perhaps we should meet at the cafe...wink.gif I'll get a mail off to you this week............ Edited by - Blatman on 7 Jan 2002 12:56:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted January 7, 2002 Share Posted January 7, 2002 Look forward to it.....I'll arrange a mortgage for a burger!!!! Kenny HPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pied Piper Posted January 7, 2002 Author Share Posted January 7, 2002 Thanks for all the input guys.... I have found from past FWD Escort experience that engines mounted transversely still sufer from oil surge problems when driven quickly on very tight courses ie 3 Sisters. I assume the Rover will be no different in this area. What about the foam though, I believe it works in Kennys HPC??? Peter, yes good idea about the Elise guys, it's the same basic concept. As far as the ECU is concerned I will stick with what I know, the DTA box is superb, I already have as many PC cables as I care to make up myself and I have the control box for mapping and of course the s/w is free anyway. Also I have a fair bit of experience with the box having used it on my 2.0XE in rhe Rover 25, on the Zetec 2L in the Caterham now oned by "Julians" and on Kennys HPC (ignition only!!!) plus various other Rally type users I have helped out. (just fitting Kenny original one on an Astra with TB's at the moment) Also I get a good trade discount which makes it considerably cheaper! also make my own looms up as im in the electronics business! OK about the CR and the head work, cams etc, looks like there's plenty of potential anyway here, it's all down to my mates pocket really! The end result should be a very nice rallycar thats relatively lightweight and more powerful than the old X/flow, it should therefore be competitive and drive well. (the owner thinks that FWD is the proper way!) I've tried to convert him to RWD but have so far failed! One thing is for sure, this must be the best MK3 shell in existance, no rot whatsoever! Thanks guys, keep it coming! Martin Rear wheel drive is best! (but sometimes 4WD is better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 DVA's message is simple... do it. i.e. the head will take the work without investment. The investment of DHTB and 740 cams will give you 180 bhp. Moving onwards and ever upwards,I am upgrading to VVC etc and have a head to the above spec available, in about 6 weeks, that has only done 3,000 miles since up its grade. If your are interested, contact me off line. John Howe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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