Alex Wong1697456877 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 How strong is the current 6 speed box - would it stand vigourous use with a JPE engine? As good as the Elite box is (especially now that all the teething probs seem to be sorted), I've decided that it's a bit extreme and I was just wondering whether the 6 speed would be up to the task. I know a type 9 isn't, unless I get another dog box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 tough as old boots... talk to Phil (road and race? can never remember the company name) about the 6 spd box - he had lots of nuggets of advice as he was reconditioning my 6spd and could probably help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finmac Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I have 6 speed in my VX, Dyno'd by QED at 243BHP. No problems. HPC with QED 450 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 It's what the CSR race cars run isn't it? 'Nuff said! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1ck Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Alex, to the best of my knowledge the last few JPEs were supplied with 6 speed boxes including, I believe, Stan Romanczuk's which featured in Decembers Low Flying, so I don't think power is a problem. It's a lovely box to use and it suits the characteristics of the JPE engine perfectly. In fact I have here in my living room...... only joking! Belated congratulations on your newborn BTW! Regards, Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted January 3, 2006 Support Team Share Posted January 3, 2006 I am led to believe that Phil at Road and Race can do some mods to bring the box up to what they call "Swiss Spec" - that is for the 300bhp+ nutter turbo things that the Swiss guys have. I think that Dave Jackson may have had the mods done to his gearbox. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Thanks - will give this some thought.... My old semi helical synchro type 9 was great but I've heard too many stories about synchro failures and although my driving style seems to keep them intact, I'd rather not worry about them failing. A Quaife HD SC dog box seems a possible solution but it would need the alloy case as the iron ones seem to crack alot. It would be a noisy clunky thing for the road though. The six speed is a bit too close WRT the ratios but I'm sure I could get used to it - would need to change the diff ratio though. I'm thinking of doing less track driving and enjoying using the car on the road more so a quiet synchro box is appealing. How much is a 6 speed box these days? Of course, I may change my mind and keep the Elite if I do a trackday soon - it's a joy to use on the track, but it is so damned noisy and clunky on the road. Nick - thanks! Your engine has been running very well - and it is a bit more powerful than my Q450 engine was. Thank you for looking after it for so long for me!! Edited by - Alex Wong on 4 Jan 2006 01:21:35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Alex I would suggest having a chat with Phil Stewart at Road and race transmissions. He is in a position to comment on the strength and durability of the 6 speeder. I understand there have been some issues with heat /siezing of gearboxes on the road going CSR - due to the lack of airflow through the engine bay and the power output. But the 6 speeder appears to withstand a far degree of abuse quite well - I imagine it also depends on the cluctch you intend using ?. I have had mine uprated with the latest mods - all suggested and guided by Phil Stewart. I also get it refreshed each year just to be safe but apoart from a few syncros ( I change gear a bit fast from 2>3rd sometimes) there hasnt been any serious faults.(touch wood) . I would expect the 6 gears to be a bit much on the Vx though will all that torque ?? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 ooopps forgot to add - Phil sometimes has boxes for sale too .I think £800 >£1300 is the going rate 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Alex, For road use the sporting close ratio 5 speeder from BGH would be your best bet. They are cheap,quiet and seem to stand up to 250 bhp ish when mated to the 2.3 duratec. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Rob, I had a close ratio semi helical Quaife type 9 and it was a very good match for the engine, but I've heard too many stories about synchro failures and casing cracks. A type 9 dog box with ali casing is probably the best option. My sequential 5 speed is probably geared closer than the caterham 6 speed (very tall first and short 5th) but the sequential box lends itself to closer ratios and actually the JPE engine is a bit peaky compared to my old Q450 engine, so it may be that a 6 speed would be a good thing. Dave, That sounds like good value!! - I might give him a call, rev limiter (big and little one now) permitting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Alex, I don't know if you want to wait but I have it on very good authority that a well known transmission design and build company are presently developing an all new 5 sp box with aluminium casing, helical gears and synchro which will fit directly in place of the ubiquitous type 9. It has been designed to be way stronger than the type 9 in all areas, especially the synchro rings and is being developed specifically to cater for the big horsepower Duratec and VX engines without all the present weaknesses. I understand it will also be offered, as an option, with straight cut dog engagement gears and the target price will not be dissimilar to a Caterham 6 speed. The first development 'box is due for completion very soon whereupon it is to be fitted into a big horsepower 2.3 Duratec (not mine unfortunately) powered car to see if they can break it! I understand they are looking to make this 'box available towards the end of this year. Mail me offline if you want further details although I would add this is not for general consumption at the moment so please don't anybody else ask me for further info just yet All will be officially revealed in due course. Not saying I don't trust anybody else but I know Alex will treat it with doctor/patient confidentiality. 😬 Brent 2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive R 417.39 😬 Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 4 Jan 2006 14:39:06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Yes this development has great potential, and would fill a big voi, but lead time is yet to be confirmed following testing. I guess you could always buy a BGH or a 6 speed and then sell either quite easily when the new box is available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Alex, if you run with a standard organic clutch you won`t have any synchro problems or cases cracking. Its the paddle and multi plate clutches that wreck syncros as they have no transmission cush springs in the friction plate and are designed to bite with little slip. its the old story you cannot have it always. You certainly don`t want a dog box for road use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Brent - Is it's pedigree racing or Cadbury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Eh 🤔 *confused* Brent 2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive R 417.39 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted January 5, 2006 Author Share Posted January 5, 2006 Brent - Blatmail is offline - could you mail me at [alex AT flitch-house DOT net] please? Sounds very interesting - Do you think they want another test mule? It might be something to do with my driving style, but I burnt up organic clutch plates at the rate of 1 a year - might explain why my type9 synchro boxes survived so well. I don't mind the dog shift, even for road use - I tried ECR's and it was ok, and my sequential box is a dog box as well. It's the noise - a Quaife SC box is loudish but the Elite is very loud. Also, it actually gets quite tiring on a trackday to use the sequential as you have to be quite positive with it and it's always the same movement - and when you're tired on a 5000 mile rally, the sequential is a real hinderance - remembering to shift down everytime you stop etc etc. It's a question of striking the balance between a good road car and a good track car, and I've gone a bit too far towards a good track car. The Elite is very very good on the track. Edited by - Alex Wong on 5 Jan 2006 10:52:47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Mmm, sound interesting. Will it last though i wonder, and it will take at least 1-2 years to make sure that it has all the teething problems are sorted. Carbon Components Here K9 Composites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 My alloy cased BGH Sporting Close type 9 has been fine with my 256bhp/201lbft 2.3l Duratec, but I only rev to 7500 which probably helps a bit. I had a 6 speed for a while and it's a great box but you need to get the right ratio diff on it other wise you're going to spend the whole time at sky high revs. Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 other wise you're going to spend the whole time at sky high revs And the problem is? 😬 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 😬 I've got used to the lazy torque of my Duratec now 😬 Having said that when I had the 6 speed I was running an 8500rpm Xflow and yes it was a LOT of fun! Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Alex, I can give another recomendation to the BGH box, with alloy case and cover. I had one mated to a 245bhp Vauxhall, first of all in my hillclimb Seven then for 5 years in my 21, on road and track, with no problems at all. I was revving to 8k in 2nd, [on track] but didn't particularly rush the changes, so never had problems with the synchro rings. Very nice to use and quiet too. I really think you'll find the 6 speed ratios too close, in fact I'm so convinced it's the wrong box, that I'm currently having Brian Hill make me up one of his 5 speed "sporting close" boxes to install in the CSR 260 I'm building, and no, at the moment the 6 speeder supplied isn't up for sale Paul J. Hard work never killed anyone ........ but why take the chance! [Except building up my new CSR kit] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted January 5, 2006 Author Share Posted January 5, 2006 I was revving to 8k in 2nd, [on track] but didn't particularly rush the changes, so never had problems with the synchro rings. But what if you regularly reved to 8000 in first, second, third and fourth and did rush the changes? Does the BGH box use the standard ford bronze synchro rings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I think that's why you have the "clunky" box Alex, I suspect the standard 6 speed wouldn't be any stronger if it was used as hard as that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 My BGH tweaked by Phil Stewart, has seen 6 years of regular excursions to 9300 revs in my crossflow and the only problem it ever had was unrelated to this. Admittedly it doesn't have to handle anything like the torque of the 250hp monsters, but I am happy with it Paul Jacobs, does that mean you are planning to compare the two back to back in your CSR 260 ? If so we would all be interested to hear the results 🤔 Edited by - Graham Perry on 5 Jan 2006 19:00:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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