Area Representative Richard Price Posted November 17, 2005 Area Representative Share Posted November 17, 2005 I just ahd a look at the results from the last 2 years - its safe to say that all the leading drivers in all classes dropped at least 2 scores during the season, many dropped between 3 & 5 I only did the five events last year, and each event HAD to count ❗ Whilst I've done all the rounds this year, next year I won't be able to do as many. I can see the issues with poorly supported classes, but I'm most uneasy about the wetday/dryday situation. If a decision has to be made if its wet or dry, then there will also be arguments and ill feeling. If we are to use class records as the bench mark, we may as well not run class 4 next year, unless it is limmited to modified Hayabusa monsters. I don't feel there's that much wrong with the present system, and think we should stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Sorry been out since my last post. Now Daves idea "maybe something for the wet ??? bogey time plus 10% , max score = 20.50 Mark D would declare a "wet" event ." is along the lines i was thinking or Dave Nelsons of reverting back to the current system on a "wet" day. My only concern is that this gets all to complicated. A simple system is always the best. I do however think that in the overall championship it is going to go currently to the class winner who has had enough competitors to ensure a 21.50 but with the least competition. Andy this does'nt mean I don't think you should have won this year. In fact lets just be clear I'm sure all of us are not trying to negate AG's drives this year We are just trying to make something better. Again as BB the old devil may be at play here. Why do we need an overall Champion? Why does the champion need to be found via a points system. All class winners could enter a balot to be voted for by any member who has contested an event. There has to be a simple way that does not penalise anyone for whatever reason who has taken part in any 7 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 😬 yes - lets run the first family friendly polically correct championship 😬 😬 😬 hey we could have a creche in the paddock and lentils for lunch instead of bacon and brie 😬 😬 *wink* its a minimum of 7 rounds from 12 (or whatever for 2006) , as with all championships there are a minimum number of rounds - if you are keen then you will do more - its always been the case, some folk have other commitments and this limits their ability to do more rounds - but I dont believe that shouldnt be reflected in the rules for the majority 🤔 . I realy think its a bad idea to start diluting the championship to accomodate those entrants who can only do a certain number of rounds - and as for lets not have a champion but a popularity contest 😬 😬 😬 .......... 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I thought it was a family club with a high level of competition. If your that serious as you are Dave you do the various regional championships. You have the time and I do not. 7 outings is just about all that I can justify. And thats fine those are the rules. If it were 8 or 9 I know i would not be able to do qualify for the championship. My point is that those who can only do lets say the minimum for whatever reason should not loose out due to the weather. If you win your class by a given margin whats the difference it it was in the wet or dry. This has led me to think actually that the class record has no bearing over that particular years competition. You can only compete against those who are present. I'm sort of saying leave it as it is for the classes but we then need to look at the overall champion as my previous point about the least competitive class champion is going to win. I thought this was suposed to be fun. Even though I'll admit to being a little competitive now and then 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 ok here is a thought just for the 'championship' side of things 1. score it on a F1 type basis (First gets 10, second gets 8 and so on down to 1 point for 6th in class) 2. no mimum / maximum amounts of events to be entered , so in theory if 13 rounds, max score of 130 this rewards 1. those that come top of there class 2. those that do more events 3. completelty indpendent of the class scoring/championship 4. is independent of weather 5. not related to time, and more about position if 1 or more persons gets 130 points, then they share the award.... rob My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Rob *thumbup* *thumbup* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Rob, Your F1 points system will be deeply unpopular with anyone that doesn't come in the first 6 as they will all score nil points. Given the numbers we often have in class 2/3 at events this would result in most of the field scoring nothing!! The Aldon HSA championship does this - not much fun scoring Nil points all the time! As for Dave's suggestion whats wrong with the slightly revised version of our current scoring system as used in the Midland Speed Championship as has been mentioned before?? This encompasses an element of competition against established class records for the fast runners whilst maintaining the strengths of the existing system for everyone else. And takes account of the weather, lunar cycle etc! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Brain - my suggestion was purely for the overall champion side of things would still need to resolve the scoring for individual classes either 1, stay as it is 2, adopt DJ's proposal 3, adopt DJ's proposal with some tweaking for wet events 4, something else personally i like DJ's proposal and I don't think there is a simple solution for the wet weather issue but I am sure we can work something out... rob My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Jnr Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I think Rob means for the overall champion, not for class championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 may I suggest we keep one points scoring system rather than the suggestion of class *and* overall points Nolimits - I'm not serious about this just need my speed fix once per week Dave C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬 South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Dave I thought you were always serious about things Eh we're all after the same thing - I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrannY OrB TuneR Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 An ex-novices point of view. Dave J discussed this me last Saturday as we shared a car to the AO's meeting. Overall I like the idea of the scoring system proposed by Dave. Using David Nelson's example from pg1 of thread. In RED is Dave's suggested scoring system (hope you got your maths right Mr Nelson 🤔). & in GREEN is the current system. Wiscombe class 3 2004 FT 49.72 2005 Wet 49.72 + 20.00 = 69.72 FT 50.49 score 19.23 2nd 51.83 score 17.89 3rd 52.75 score 16.97 1st 50.49 score 21.34 2nd 51.83 score 20:00 3rd 52.75 score 19.08 I dont know if any has worked this out. But to reassure everyone the points difference between the drivers is the same in both cases. Yes the points scored will be lower in wet conditions. As already suggested this will favour the competitors who complete more rounds. What options do we have 🤔 1) Use Dave J's suggested scoring system 2) Use Dave J's suggested scoring system with a tweak for wet sprints 3) Stick to current From my point of view this should not put people off. This is meant to be a friendly championship & it is. When you enter these sort of events you accept that there are going to be very competitive drivers & at the other end of the scale the ones who view this as a social/fun event. Part of the challenge in these kind of championships is how well you can do with your ability & tools. What other factors are involved in people competiting 🤔 > costs may restrict the number of events > distance particular if you drive the 7 to the event > work / family commitments ......to name a few. Whats my point. I think we can hardly blame the weather if we use Dave J suggested scoring system. Now take this into consideration To those that intend to be class champion / overall champion > need to be fully commited ie attend 90% of the events. Therefore giving you more of an option to drop the low scores > peronal budgets > driver ability ......there's probably more but cannot think of any at this time Whichever way you look at it I would say you cannot enter a championship with a view to entering 7 events & expect to win it. Damn good if you did . Would it encourage or discourage novices. Personally I dont think it matters. Its upto to the club's fellow competitors to encourage novices as Dave J did to me & Red Dave. As the club has done already running a novices championship certainly made it worthwhile for me . Only because I got 3rd place 😬. Thats beside the point 3rd place could of gone 1 of 3 ways. Personally I entered the sprints with an open mind. My main aim was to complete a minimum of 7 events so that I could see how well I had done over a season & what it was like experience wise to compete. I had the view that attending 1 sprint would not be adequate for me to get a taster. What would be interesting is to score last seasons as per Dave J's suggestion & see how much of a difference there is. Anyone bored enough to do this or has plenty of spare time on there hands. I'll stop my drival now Gary GrannY OrB TuneR 😳 Tweaker Of Fine Granny Orbs ! 😳 Superlight No: 170 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygriffiths Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Hi no limits and robmar,if you have spoken to me in the past you will know that i have been saying all along that the overall champion is the one with the least competition hence the 21.5 points all the time.So i accept this is why i have won this year even though i have broken all the class records in the process.I have also suggested a points system of 10 for a win 9 for seccond right down to 1 point for tenth,so the top ten get points and with 7 rounds to count a person can miss some events and come back with some good results and be right back in it.Max 70 points with 7 rounds to count and if there is a tie then the amount of records broken will decide it as in the midland championship.The weather is also taken out of the equasion.When ken did all the events last year it was good fun but he has done the midland rounds this year so my main competition has gone ☹️I built my car to see how fast i could go on list 1a tyres and not just to win but you can not beat close competition as in class 2 and 3.Classes 4 5 6 have always had the modified cars in them it is just tyres that seperate them as in 2 and 3.Running on list 1a tyres is also way cheaper than acb 10's or slicks.It should be an interesting discussion anyway 😬 GRIFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmmarsh Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Top Gear reckon that a dry track is worth 4 seconds over a wet one - could a similar solution work here - the clerk can declare a handicap for the course on the day - say in a range 15-20 seconds, which is added to the record for a bogey time. The handicap can probably be worked out from the times from previous years. Alternatively, give 1 point for the fastest lap in the two practice sessions and use that + 20 for the bogey time in each class. It would give the class leaders something to shoot at, and would set a benchmark for the track that day, regardless of the weather (I know that it won't allow for a drying track or late rain). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Complicated issue this one, the current points system certainly works pretty well but there is room for improvement. To that end, Daves suggestion sounds fairly logical to me. The number of rounds issue came into play for me this year as I did 8 rounds & crashed at one, so had no spare ones to drop as such I had to include a poor performance at Longcross in my Championship result ,which saw me slip behind a certain other R400 owner who I had beaten at all other events 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 but thats how the cookie crumbles, I knew how the results system worked & should of done more rounds (somehow), then no doubt second place would have been mine. (am I bovvered though 😬 😬) Whilst you may not win your class / championship this way, you still have the personal satisfaction of looking back at your own individual performance's at each round & the warm inner glow of having beaten a few fellow competitors was enough for me this year anyway. If you are seriously in it to win it, then you have to make the sacrifices to attend enough events to enable you to have a few spares ones to cover breakdowns / crashes /rain / poor performance or what ever else may occur, otherwise you must endeavor to simply enjoy the satisfaction of that days efforts & forget about the overall standings, dont forget its meant to be fun after allU] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Griff's said sometime ago his thought on the overall champion, and i think he is right. For me its how i do against the rest of Class 3, i have very little interst to see were I came in the overall champoinship( 7th by the way ) For me keeping the class points structure right is the most important. This year in class 3 the positions were sorted quite early not sure about the other classes except 2 that went to the last event. This meant that the last few events were about fun and pride. If a new or altered system was taken up and it kept the scores even tighter then great. I am still uncomftable about the wet: Good wet drives need to be rewarded. Adrian is much faster/has more skill in the wet than me, i have never beaten him (yet). If we used the DJ system then I could still beat him in the champoinship by dropping my wet scores. What is the aim of scoring? is it to keep everyone happy, or the top runners, or the novices? is it to find the class winners or the overall champion? Are we compeating against the class record or against the driver in front? for me it just does not sound right "I won today and got 15.65 points" (wet) David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Robinson Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I like Dave's idea, and I believe it is always good for people to add ideas like this, even if they aren't taken on. As someone who will only do 7 or 8 rounds I guess I would be one of the ones to suffer if a number of my rounds were to be wet (especially as I am carp in the rain). But that is the price I pay for not being able to make it to more rounds. If I want to win the class (or place right up there) then I need to do more rounds simple as that. If people are sure the rain issue is a problem then why not revert to the old system for wet days with clerk of the course making the call on if it is wet or dry. Once people understand the process then that would surely solve all the problems. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Gets the brain cells working doesn't it. 😬 I can see good and bad in both systems as has already been pointed out, however looking to the future a change to a points scoring system based on the class record puts significantly more emphasis on our class structure being very stable over the forthcoming years ❗ There are some things we have no control over. As a for instance let's say the MSA changed stunners from 1a to 1b and let's also assume they're worth a second at any given event over the next best (don't worry about this being a 'fact' the same thing could happen to 24 compound ACB's or whatever). If this were to happen class 2 & 4 competitors would be at a point per event disadvantage over the other classes. It works both ways and if say R300's were allowed into class 2 or 3 in the future they would instantly have an advantage over the other classes. I'm not against Dave J's idea I just think we need to look at the bigger picture over the next few years and make sure the class rules will be stable enough to make the overall championship meaningful which presumably was the reason for suggesting the change in the first place. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manxseven Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I'm not sure the Clerk of the Course will be interested (they have enough to do in the running of the event as it happens) in deciding if it's 'wet' or 'dry', especially where the L7 Club is an invited club. This would need to be agreed with each C of C before each event, not expect them to be told on the day. What if he/she says, 'that's up to your club to sort out'. The L7 club regs have to go to the MSA for approval and I'm not sure you get that bit approved. Just my thoughts. L7 BDA Supersprint now For Sale here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Adrian - I kind of asked the same thing but in less words in my first post, responding to Daves 3. If there are changes in class regs, do all class records get reset and then point#2 comes into play... Manx - fair point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Sorry Rob I hadn't picked that up. I'll get my coat 😬 Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 no you put it better and also highlighted some of the issues if we did that so if class records get reset is the maximum that a winner can score by 20, if so they have little or no chance at the overall title, and are subsequently punished for the rules changes... it might be a good thing so as to keep class stability tho... overall I am still in favour of Daves proposal I think it has less flaws than the current system rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Happy Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Very Intresting 😬 😬 Just need to sort out some thoughts out. watch this space 🤔 🤔 TM 😬 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Manx, I did wonder about the CofC bit myself. As a CofC at a busy venue as you say there is usually enough to worry about - and I suspect that most CofC's would suggest this is a club championship issue and one to be decided by the official representative on the day. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Happy Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Ok 1. DJ scoring could work *eek*but class 2 and 4 will never win the overall champoinship. Well thats life *eek*change class. 2. remove by request. 3. If it rains, you get wet. class 6,5, and 4 will suffer as they all got too much power for the wet stuff. class 1 2 and 3 are the winners. good by overal champoinship to any one in class 6,5, or 4 if its a wet year. 4. lets turn it all upside down. lowest score at the end of the year wins. if you bet the class record you get - points, if not your points are how ever far of you are from the class record. I will be back TM Edited by - TM on 18 Nov 2005 19:39:15 Edited by - TM on 18 Nov 2005 19:41:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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