frankyknuckles Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 What are the differences / advantages / disadvantages between these and under what application is one better than the other? Also, does anyone know which type are standard in an R300 ? www.R300.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I think R300s are std. Hydraulic - VHPD's had solid lifters IIRC. Depends (largely) on how agressive your cams are, I believe. Solid can be noisy - and a PITA to shim. See Oily's site: here Mechanical or solid followers are available from Arrow Precision, Piper, Kent Cams, Warrior and Dave Newman. These are are not cheap (£200-400 including shims) and must be shimmed properly in order to operate satisfactorily, this is a time consuming and expensive operation. Any cam with more than 274 degrees duration or 10mm lift should use ‘solid’ followers. The followers fitted to the VHPD, R500 and some Caterham racers are of this solid type and have a different construction to the hydraulic type being a hollow bucket with a central pillar which operates on the shim. The shim sits within a locating ring on the spring cap, in a similar manner to the converted hydraulic followers, the shims are used to set the appropriate valve clearance between cam and follower Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 ISTR that Hydraulic ones are suitable only up to certain revs - after that they can't keep up. Therefore, for the higher revving applications (i.e. beyond Rover's original tolerances), the solid ones are a must. VHPD's had higher rev limits therefore solid followers, the R300 isn't as lairy, therefore hydraulic ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen grant Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Just to mix it up a little.... my 1.6k SS has solid followers; Oily had a look a couple of weeks ago stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 could just have been for reliability? The engine that oily built for me ISTR had solid ones.... (might be making that bit up...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen grant Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Oily didn't make the engine for me; it was untouched from the day it left the factory until he took the cam cover off (still had the seals in place) But the car ran in Roadsport 'A' (hence the seals), so perhaps Minister put solid followers in for engines destined for race series, or something stephen Edited by - stephen grant on 14 Nov 2005 16:32:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Would make sense - especially on race cars where oil surge/thin oil/starvation etc might be an issue. Might be talking out of my bum of course. Anything that reduces potential failure points in engine has to be a good idea in a race car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen grant Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 The only downside is that Oily can't then port the head on an exchange basis; he needs yer actual head for a few days. Which is a very minor inconvenience if you happen to be planning on going the DVA upgrade route. Which I am. stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Solids are all about valve acceleration. More revs and more extreme cam profiles give higher valve accels. Hydraulics will pump down if they are given too hard a job to do. They are also heavier, but this only comes into effect for higher rev ranges still. If I was building an engine to see 8500rpm, I would definitely use solid followers. If I was going to see 8000rpm on a regular basis, it would be viable to use a solid conversion of the hydraulics to save a bit of money. Mechanicals on a race Supersport are just about where it starts being something to consider. In particular with wet-sump engines that might see some aeration of the oil mechanicals will not result in that tappety death rattle. It is worth noting that the grind of a cam designed for mechanicals is different to the grind for hydraulics - the profile is significantly different. The mechanicals are ground with a lift ramp that closes a clearance gap. Hydraulics don't need a lift ramp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Solids were fitted as standard in the race 1.4kss and I have them. They will one day need re shimming but only after 40-50k or so, I can wait. I have another spare set in an oily plastic bag in the magic teachest. I believe they fit all Ks. Any takers, you know where to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Expanding on Peter's point re: weight, the effect of the accelerated mass if the tappet is not kept as light as possible (light = solid) means premature failure of the valve gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 As Battered says, the 1.4KSS race cars were fitted with solids from the early days (after they trashed a number of heads running hydraulics). I would expect all the K-series race cars to run solids in the light of this, but maybe they don't? I'm pretty sure the KSports 1600 race cars (stock 1.6K in a Mallock-type chassis) run hydraulics, though I'm surprised they get away with it given Caterham's past experience. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 R300s have solid followers, hydraulic followers can handle reasonably high valve acceleration provided there is sufficient duration to allow them to recharge between cycles, the hottest profiles available from Piper have 9 thou lift per degree whihc is pretty high on the Richter scale. some of the SS cams are a solid profile, primarily to prevent follower rattle in some of the race cars which is usually caused by oil aeration rather than pump-out/pump-up. The SS cams are pretty mild WRT lift, duration and valve acceleration and given good oiling certainly wouldnt need to be a solid profile. sometimes the alignment between the follower oil supply drilling and the head oil supply drilling is a little off, this cna also cause follower rattle, some judicious fettling of the oil supply dirlings in the head can improve the reliability of hydraulics no end. Hydraulic followers are Nirvana for the valve train, they adjust automatically for thermal expansion and any wear, unlike a solid follower where the follower clearance will always be a compromise and will require continuing maintenance. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 14 Nov 2005 18:05:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyknuckles Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 Thanks all. The reason I ask is that I was confused which cams would be used to convert an R300 to 200bhp. If an R300 has mechanical (solid) followers, then I presume I need BP285M cams? (not BP285H) Oily - I think you recently did an R300 upgrade with BP285H cams, hence my confusion www.R300.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I would suggest some Piper 1227's Franky on solid followers, double valve springs , steel caps all living inside a VHPD head (with the lightest of tidy ups) from Tom 7 = 200bhp WRT weight - the arrow / piper solid followers are near as damn it same weight as VVC followers converted to solids (assuming they contain no oil) ☹️ C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬 South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 1227s can be hard on the valve gear, BP285H or BP285M are both capable of producing over 200BHP on a VVC /VHPD head, 1227s at the same head spec will produce 10-15BHP more but you will need to rev higher to see the extra power. The BP285H cams will run happily with hydraulic followers and these can easily be fitted as replacements for the solid followers, or BP285M (740) cams can be fitted and the existing followers re-shimmed to suit. Converted followers run OK with 740s but are marginal with 1227s or above. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyknuckles Posted November 15, 2005 Author Share Posted November 15, 2005 Thanks for the clarrification Oily Dave Jackson - My plan is to have the K16 head ported to 200bhp spec (possibly with large VVC/VHPD size valves), BP285M cams (or H depending on what Oily suggestes is best), forged pistons (already have these), single tang rods etc. As an alterntive, I might go VHPD head route to 200bhp, not sure really. My first choice works out alot cheaper. www.R300.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry21p Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 does that mean i got an answer VAUGELY right for a change? woohoo! (proves i was listening when oily talked to me last) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Best Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 BOS YHM Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 I'm surprised it's cheaper to have a K16 head ported & revalved a to 200bhp spec. vs. simply acquiring a VVC head & blanking kit (or VHPD head which doesn't require a blanking kit) Unless you're doing the porting yourself of course! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 The cams for the VVC head are more expensive too Mike, and there is quite a lot of rogering around getting the leads and distributor to work correctly. most VHPD heads are bare and populating them can be expensive. The cost of big valving a K16 head is significantly less expensive when you factor in all the hidden extras. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Ahem...anyone want to buy a Standard K series head that cam off my car a couple of weeks ago?? (everything apart from Cams) Gareth Blue and Carbon 6 Speed Supersport with new wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Andy, thanks. Magic teachest strikes again for 2 happy blatchatters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyknuckles Posted November 15, 2005 Author Share Posted November 15, 2005 Oily, I've been offered a very good deal on a pair of 1227 cams that have only done 800 miles (from an Exige). Can I use these in a big valve K16 head and will the power delivery differ from using 285 cams? (I have no idea of the meaning of 1227 and 285 numbers). www.R300.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted November 15, 2005 Leadership Team Share Posted November 15, 2005 BOSS - email me if there's anything else lurking in there that might be of use 😬 Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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