Dave McCulloch Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I built my new K series engine without the sump foam following Myles' bad experiences, and have added an apollo tank to provide some protection. However, I'm getting noticeable oil surge with the oil pressure dropping to 2 bar on tight right handers - particularly noticeable turning right at roundabouts. Doesn't seem to drop below 2, but a drop from 4 nonetheless. I've just ordered a sump foam from CC and will refit when I change the oil after running in. Please can you post below if you run K series wet sump without foam and without the hellier baffle - do you get oil surge or not 🤔 Thanks Dave (currently working out if I can justify cost of dry sump to SWMBO 😳) Edited by - Dave McCulloch on 8 Nov 2005 12:20:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Try drilling two 6mm holes in the sump gasket on the exhaust side near the pickup, as close to the flange as you can get, this will help the oil to drain near the pickup. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 We ran without foam/no hellier baffle for ages - never any problem. We now run baffle and no foam - again, never any problems, including thrashing and hard track day stuff. Never had any surge problems, as testified by the near perfect condition of all bearing liners recently. I still think there is a massive mis-conception as to what that foam does though. I cannot see how it can act as a surge baffle when it is sandwiched, above the sump pan, between an ali sandwich plate and the alloy ladder below the crank. The only thing I can see it is used for is a 'splash' absorber for the oil thrashing off the crank. With or without teh foam, the oil is still going to run up and down the sump IMO. Having taken apart our sump a few times, I think alot of these problems are to do with installation - our oil pick up pipe was totally undone the first time we took our sump off - if you look at the design of the tea strainer at teh end of the pick up pipe, and the very crude 3 small pips that hold it off the internal base of the sump itself, you can see that there is massive potential for variable performance. Some pics on our website - obviously www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 By the way - I stand to be corrected on any of that and bow to superior knowledge (Oily!! ) but all IMO! www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Good tip oily www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 For some time I was ignorant of the foam arrangement in my sump. My 5 year old 1.6 170 BHP K series (Apollo) shows consistent oil pressure of 4 bar dropping to 3.75 when hot (100deg +) on track. R hand bends & I hardly ever see the OP drop but on L hand bends it drops to 2 bar. DVA now has the engine, & when it's apart, it'll be interesting to see what the bearings are like especially as I rev it to 7500 on a standard bottom end! Earlier this year I dropped the sump to find the foam sitting in the sump pan with a neat cut-out for the oil pick-up. I removed the foam & fitted a Hellier baffle. There was no difference in the oil pressure on track. Incidentaly my gauge is the older VDO which reads reasonably rapidly. Now I don't know who started putting the foam in the sump pan rather than between the windage plate & oil rail, as every 2 years I would get a professional to service the car, & check it over, with me doing the other services. I've never touched the foam. Now if I wasn't moving to a dry sump I'd be inclined to try an experiment: use the Hellier baffle but place foam fore & aft in the sump pan. Also carry out DVA's recommended modification to the sump gasket to get better drainage around the pick-up. Incidentally I think the reason for the foam breakup is having it squashed between the windage plate & the oil rail. If it's uncompressed in the pan I don't think it'll break up. Dave: If you want to do this you can have a free loan of my Hellier baffle. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I'm no engine expert......but if the oil pressure's dropping it can only mean one thing. There a lack of oil a the pick-up. The OP on my 7K 1800 K series displayed exactly the same behaviour as yours. Mine had the sump foam. When Oily showed me the mains there were definite signs of oil starvation at 1 & 2 main bearings. I've still got the shells if you want to see what that look like. Time to start writing to Santa 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 Oily Sump gasket has the holes - you drilled them I visited you a couple of months ago 😬. Oil is filled to the top of the dipstick marks with engine idling. But I'm still losing OP on RH corners ☹️. What's strange is the old 1600SS never had any issues, and I've transferred the pick up pipe, windage plate and sump across from the old engine to the new . The only difference is I'm using cheap 10W30 mineral oil to run in new engine, whereas I was running Mobil 1 0W40 before. Dave Edited by - Dave McCulloch on 8 Nov 2005 14:30:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 If you transfered over the pickup pipe from the old engine - it could be an issue as Angus described where the pickup is not sat correctly in relation to the sump pan . I would remove the pan , remove the pickup and increase the "pimples" on the bottom of the pickup pipe tea strainer to allow a 2-3mm gap to be maintained in relation to the pan. Pictures are on angus' web site . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I'm pretty sure we made the changes to the pickup when the engine was here Dave. I do that on all engines that have the sump off here. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 Dave It didn't have the pickup pipe on when you looked at it - I'd popped a standard Rover sump on to transport the engine. I don't however follow why the pickup pipe sitting at the wrong position / increasing the dimples will resolve this. The OP is fine in all circumstances except sharp RH bends - surely if the dimples were too small then there would be a general lack of OP, particularly at higher revs? Angus - my thoughts too about the role of the foam - it's just that that is the only thing I've changed (other than the oil type) and I had no problems before. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Some of the chat above mentions loss of pressure on corners. So, just as a relevant aside, whether you are running with or without foam if you do track days and have no Apollo the bearings will fail sooner or later. Our 1400K SS has just wiped its bearings admittedly after 3 years of regular track days but probably no more than 1500 track miles. I haven't stripped the engine but the sump was full of white metal. So be warned. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Well, with the Hellier baffle and no foam, I can certainly get OP down to 25psi (Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 No foam and a Hellier and no oil surge that I can detect (SPA gauge) Pressure drops to 25psi at idle after a track session though. Oily belted hell out of my pick up to give a greater aperture for the oil to pass into the tube. Grant 😬 183 BHP of Black and 'Stone Chip' excitement. 😬 here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 OBNS - when you say knocked hell out of it what did the end result look like? Just about (well in the next 3/4 weeks) to fir a new engine into 1400K. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Oily belted hell out of my pick up ... 😬excellent phrase! www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Err... looking from the bottom of the engine, with the pickup strainer facing me I bent down the area between the 'plings' so that there would be a gap of 5-6mm between the sump bottom and the pickup entries rather than the 1-3mm of the stock pickup. You have to hit it rather hard... oily Edited by - oilyhands on 8 Nov 2005 22:41:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 OK "he smote it mightily!!" didnt look that much different; just deeper indentations. Grant 😬 183 BHP of Black and 'Stone Chip' excitement. 😬 here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 ...something we have not done, but will do next time we see it - just to be sure. www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 This is now on my list of REALLY CHEAP upgrades. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAZZA Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 any news yet on the sump gasket mod to improve flow, I think Oily had a sketch or something 🤔 Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have a picture if you have a host FTP site. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAZZA Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I havent got one of those things, but maybe someone else has 🤔 Thanks Oily. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I can pop it up on-line if you email it to me Oily - address in profile. www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brown Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 No one has yet explained how the mesh works. Am interested as I dropped the sump on Sunday and replaced mine. Couldn't understand what it did but was in perfect condition after 5k miles. Changed just in case after scare stories here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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