Kevsta Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 See end of thread for updates Nigel James (pump/sump ordered, has tank) Roy Booth (WILL FLY!!!)(confirmed and interested in tank) Grim Reaper (confirmed, wants all) Paul Riggs Darren Wright ??? to confirm (fittings only) Dave White (pump/sump ordered) Mike Day (pump/sump ordered, has tank) Nick Pargiter (confirmed, no tank req) Neil Elwis (confirmed, interested in tank) Steve N (pump/sump ordered) Bullman 1 (x-flow-confirmed) Maybes (or those who have posted on here but not e-mailed me...not that I asked you to but it is all confusing) who need to confirm are: Steve Cragg (maybe) Quiet one (maybe) Cornelius (already has tank) I had a long and inetersting conversation with neil at Pace yesterday. They will be taking my car away ☹️ to use as a test bed so they can manufacture the new tank and get everything right (like hoses etc) for a typical installation (not that there is such a thing which they do realise). Neil has asked me to ask you guys if you have any questions or quiries about the installation. I did speak about a few things like catch tanks which he chatted about the various options (either a proper system or the use of a bottle etc). He also wanted me to point out about oil cooling issues. He says that for mainly road use then a cooler may not be a requirement but for track days and lots of fast road use we need to think about oil cooling. You can go down the air to oil cooler route or a laminova. I am going to go for the laminova as it seems the best option as it will heat the oil up and then maintain its temperature but it is more costly. The way I see it though is that while we are getting such biog discounts I may as well go for the best. Plus I will save money on a catch tank and use a bottle of some sort so I can put that money into the laminova. Obviously it is all optional though! I will be getting the sump and pump and fitting it to my car soon and will report back any problems. Then pace will take my car and use it to work out the best method for installing the rets of the parts and the design of the tank. They obviously have very high standards. I beleieve that pace would attempt to make a very high quality product and issue such as the swirl (i think) to remove air from the oil was to be of a very igh standard. Would be good to get suggestions of what people think they may need. Things like temp sender hole in the tank, drain plug, etc. Just to say that I am very impressed with their attention to detail and it is confidence inspiring with the amount of effort they are putting in for us! Regards kev Edited by - kevsta on 3 Nov 2005 11:45:46 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 09:26:20 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 09:27:18 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 09:37:07 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 09:52:02 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 10:11:59 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 10:12:27 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 10:54:33 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 10:55:03 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 12:02:40 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 12:10:10 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 12:41:58 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 12:43:45 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 15:58:32 Edited by - kevsta on 26 Jan 2006 16:34:43 Edited by - kevsta on 31 Jan 2006 11:12:20 Edited by - kevsta on 31 Jan 2006 11:13:24 Edited by - kevsta on 31 Jan 2006 12:17:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I have a Brise tank fitted to my car, and I am very pleased with it. Tim at Brise did a sterling job and couldn't have been more helpful! I can also say that the service I had from Neil at Pace was spot on. Edited by - Casbar on 3 Nov 2005 11:54:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 Removed...fair play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozz Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 If I was to go ahead with this I expect to need the Brise type tank with magnetic drain plug and temperature sensor boss. I also anticipate putting a laminova in the coolant bypass circuit mounted in front of the heater. Not planning a remote oil filter but still puzzling over the need for a catch tank. Bozz It's not MANGO it's TANGO (McLaren Orange and Black 1.6SS) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 You can seal the crank case breather pipes to run a sealed system, but you still have to have a breather from the dry sump tank, which runs to a catch tank. If the whole lot was sealed, the engine would blow its seals 😳 There are quite a few previous threads on engine breathing with dry sump systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I have a Brise tank fitted to my car, and I am very pleased with it. Tim at Brise did a sterling job and couldn't have been more helpful! I can also say that the service I had from Neil at Pace was spot on. Yup, I'd second this. V. helpfull. Above & beyond etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I installed a Pace system on my Vx engined car earlier this year using the SBD sump and brackets etc. Neil at Pace designed and produced a 'special' tank that fits into the space in front of the engine. (This, however, will not work for some Vx race cars as they have a diagonal brace across the space). He had my car for about four weeks but I did get it back in time for Brighton! The tank is based on the proven 5" Pace design that ensures good separation, with an oval bottom extension section welded on to increase the overall capacity to about 6 litres operating. The oil temperature sensor adaptor (Racetech in my case) fits into a female boss in the base. Apart from all the bits being a real squeeze the system seems to work well. There are a couple of pipe unions protruding below the chassis side member, although not below the level of the bellhousing, and the unions are a real b* to do up as its very difficult to get a 1 1/4" spanner on them. Best way would be to buy a ring spanner and cut out a piece just big enough to fit over the pipe section of the union. The catch tank is fabricated and mounted on the side of the oil tank with a welded bridge pipe and, frankly, the whole thing looks great! It vents through a small filter at the top of the catch tank. Every engine orrifice is plugged to ensure a good vacuum system, including the dipstick, oil filler, cam cover breathers etc. I use an external filter as the SBD/Pace system does away with the standard oil pump with the filter fitting. I moved the cooling expasion tank to the left (as you look at it from the front of the car) using one of the original fitting brackets plus a piece of bent up ali bolted under the back of the top radiator cotton reel mount. BTW I also re-routed the wiring harness that crosses the front of the car to be in front of the chassis members. Otherwise I was concerned that the wiring might over time wear a hole in the tank. I don't know if it applies to K series but the SBD dry sump is much shallower than the standard wet sump (as you'd expect) and leaves a huge opening at the bottom of the Vx bell housing that will scoop up every stone or other detritis off the road. I had 2mm machined off the back face of the sump to allow me to make and fit a 2mm ali sheet blanking plate to stop this happening. I also had to drill two holes through the sump rear lugs to match the bell housing bolt holes. I was told this wasn't strictly necessary but I feel happier knowing the engine and bell housing are attached at the bottom. The bolts also hold the blanking plate in place. Unfortunately we can't post pictures on Blatchat but if anyone with a Vx wants some pics I can email them, or else point me to wear I can post them for you to view. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 Paul, neil did tell me all about your system. Very good it sounds too, good to hear you are so pleased with it. To those that are concerned/confused about the remote filter arrangement, I am talking with neil about the possibility of just using a sandwich plate between the block and the filter housing for the oil but he will take a closer look at this and discuss with me/us the implications of such a design. he seemed very much of the thinking that simplicity is better and also recognises that money is not no object and so will try to make the whole system as cost effective as he can whilst being as optimally designed as is possible. Certainly an example of this would be the catch tank that does not need to be anything special unless you were a racer, in which case there may be guidelines about it. Any other thoughts or possible ideas/problems etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 What's wrong with the Think - Oil filter housing with feed connection and pressure take off filter housing. This just replaces the standard filter housing and takes a standard filter. Or is it too expensive That's what I used and it does exactly as it says on the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 It would be a possibility but I am looking at everything coming form one source at the moment to help make it easier for people. If that is considered to be the best method then I'm sure it will be used. I will notify Neil about it and see what he says. Cost is always an issue, I'm trying to keep it down to a minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Kev, Where are they going to locate the oil tank? Will it require the coolant expansion tank to be moved? Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Edited by - Nifty on 3 Nov 2005 17:44:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy A Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Yeah - at the risk of again being accused of not reading threads properly, as Nifty says - where are you putting the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 I'm not 100% sure on the expansion tank, mine is an older version (95) so may not be as much of a problem but I know others have just moved it to the side a bit more. Mick Smith's page gives some info on this but if I find out more when mine gets done I will let you all know. The tank will be in front of the engine similar to the apollo. Some criticise this as it is weight at the front....to be honest I can't see it making that much difference, not many people seem to worry about moving the engine over to the nearside to counter-balance their own weight etc. But hey, if some people have an issue with this then that is fine, I'm just trying to organise a neat install via Pace to a high standard and they wish to do the same! Any more comments please....now is the time to ask. Not long now and hopefully the orders will be made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 You dont have to move the coolant header very far. I've made a simple mounting out of aluminium alloy sheet. If anyone wants a photo I'd be happy to oblige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I did the same as Davesport, but its now occured to me, that if I want to fit an airbox, ala Revierie (or whoever its made by), then Having the header tank where it is, may cause some issues with the airbox ducting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 Yes please Davesport, have sent you an e-mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy A Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 > Some criticise this as it is weight at the front Someone who remembers their engineering needs to come along and explain what effect this has in real terms. All I have is a vague recollection that it's about M of I going round corners and dynamic weight when braking (based on distance from C of G). Whose got an engineering mechanics book? Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Kevsta YHM 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL FLY Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Kev After a long discussion with Neil a couple of months ago, I have these points. ISTR that the connection to the filter housing would be using a sandwich plate as used in the apollo installation. The only problem with this is the routing of the hoses, on the apollo they go through the alternator belt, will the hoses from the filter housing go through, round or behind/below the alternator belt ? A diagram of all the hose connections would be useful (with and without Laminova). Orientation of Laminova, Mick's is vertical i.e the oil connections are top and bottom, mine is currently horizontal, i.e. the oil connections are on the sides, this is a close fit to the nosecone on the outer connection. Will the Laminova need to be mounted with the oil connections top and bottom ? Oil tank, oil temp sensor bung, magnetic drain plug, dipstick with 1/2 litre graduations or sight glass on side ? Joining of scavenge pump outlets via pipe or manifold and single feed to tank as an alternative to seperate feeds. Catch tanks, do pace have their own and if so at what cost, otherwise mocal ones are expensive. Thats it for the moment. See willfly.net for more info. If you don't spin you ain't trying Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL FLY Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 If its good enough for F1 it must be good enough for a caterham !! 7.3 Catch tank: In order to avoid the possibility of oil being deposited on the track, the engine sump breather must vent into the main engine air intake system. Roy. See willfly.net for more info. If you don't spin you ain't trying Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Will FLy:I believe that there are two types of sandwich plate. Either a plate between the filter and the filter housing (as on the apollo system) or between the filter housing and the block. I will not be putting forward the idea of the pipes running through the alternator as I hate that design and will not replicate it! As it is a 'self build' to an extent, people could roiute the pipes wherever they want so I cannot see why this would not be avoideed anyway. but I assure you it will not be needed. I will have to talk to neil about the laminova once he has my car (I may get some pics of other to show him too). I am a little confused at those that run the laminova in line from the rad top hose as this route does not have ANY flow through it when the engine is cold and so will not heat the oil up on warm up. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So would it not make sense to run the by-pass hose through it? Well thats just my thought but I will discuss this with neil and see what he thinks is best as I am no race engineer ☹️ I cannot see how yours would be a problem as the pipes will not be a preset length and if you needed an alternate length to reach your positioning then I can't see that it would be a problem. I will ask about the dipstick requirement. I will also ask about the catch tanks. I cannot see the benefit of a manifold over running seperate pipes (in-fact it would restrict). You would need a bigger bore pipe to run two pipes into one and therefore more different fittings and pipes (pipe order is a minimum of 1 metre). Great stuff though guys...these are the things I/we need. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL FLY Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Cheers Kev, fair comment, I was just chucking ideas into the pot. Roy. See willfly.net for more info. If you don't spin you ain't trying Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 If it helps, from my recent experience with the Pace system: 1. you don't need a dip stick, there is a baffle plate in the tank which is clearly visible with the cap off and is the notional engine-running level. (You always check drysump system levels with the engine running). 2. the standard Caterham coolant header tank can be mounted to the side of its normal position or could be moved forward. The nose cone just clears the tank in either location. Some very simple mounting bracket enxtensions are all that are required, plus a couple of longer hoses. For those of you interested in fitting an airbox at some stage, the move forward but keeping the tank on the car centre line should work. 3. as previously described, my oil catch tank is mounted on the side of the main oil tank and linked by a welded brdging tube, supported by a welded bracket. The tank and catch tank are, therefore, one rigid assembly. Very simple to install and avoids having to find another place for the tank and make brackets etc. The offer of emailed pictures still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelJ Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Hi Kev Can we have an update on progress please. I think you said that we would be placing orders about now. I am keen to move forward ASAP. Thanks Nigel J Edited by - NigelJ on 9 Dec 2005 15:37:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snuttall Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Kev Have I completely missed the boat with this one? If I'm not too late already, what was the final cost / expected order date? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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