Dave McCulloch Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Shaun I'm being lazy by not phoning Caterham - how much was the race starter? And does anyone know if it will fit with the SLR 4-2-1 system (which I bought new last year, if that makes any difference)? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted November 1, 2005 Author Support Team Share Posted November 1, 2005 It's £230+VAT+delivery. The guy in parts thought that it wouldn't fit a pre-2000 Caterham. I checked with someone in the Technical department and he said it would fit with my 4-1 as it was a "race" exhaust but he didn't sound that convinced. I've ordered it anyway and will use Angus' technique if required. I don't know if it will fit with your 4-2-1. I have heard that the later exhausts are different but that you can't guarantee which you have even if bought recently - depends what was in stock I guess. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Thanks Shaun. Might have to do likewise and order one and hope! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Shaun - pop over sometime and have a look at ours so you can see what you need to do to fit - I did all the block work with engine in position, no problem. My 'bashing' was of course a carefully controlled peening action - blow torch involved aswell - actually worked pretty well and is quite neat. You exhaust is different so may be ok though... Car is in Datchet most days during the week, so only a few minutes away from you really.... www.mycaterham.com here 87,756 miles in 4 years - 1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Take apart earth and sand replace. Sundries....sandpaper...50p labour............free.. no, sounds to easy and inexpensive X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990 ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR Edited by - phil on 2 Nov 2005 18:36:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted November 1, 2005 Author Support Team Share Posted November 1, 2005 Angus - if I can't get the starter on then I'll give you a call and pop over to look at your "carefully peened" exhaust . Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I'll try and take some pictures of the area and show you where I had to remove more metal from the block.... www.mycaterham.com here 87,756 miles in 4 years - 1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 It will fit with the SLR 4-2-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonRHC Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Chaps, Starter motors are only as good as the power the get at the terminals. Maybe all the extra cabling of the battery cut of switch and it's terminals has led to a big volt drop. You could try checking the voltage at the battery and compare it to the voltage at the starter main terminals (probably the fat one marked B+ and the starter casting). then just for fun Convert it into a percentage volt drop then remove the corresponding percentage from you engines power. It may well be a kin to fireing on 3 cylinders! If there is a big volt drop and you can reduce it you might save yourself £'s. Cheers Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 The voltage drop when cranking was from 12.8 to around 8 which is more than I would have expected. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 There I was looking for reliable 'tin bashers' a year ago and I had no idea there was this raw talent right under my nose and looking for a job at that time. Certainly missed my chance there Angus. 😬 Brent 2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive R 417.39 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 The Naked Engineer Would I be correct in saying that a bad connection along the line may cause a drop in power being received by said starter? I believe that when soldering that a joint must cool down without movement to produce a good connector. Even though a bad joint may look good and feel strong it may not be a good conductor. X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990 ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Check to see if you're getting a big drop in potential from the battery to the terminal on the starter. Connect your voltmeter to the battery terminal & to the terminal on the starter. Get Mrs Shaun E to crank the car over whilst you watch the meter. This will indicate the actual losses in volts across the red cable & isolator if you've got one fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmmarsh Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Shaun I had a slow starter problem that occasionally stalled on starting. I tried changing the battery and fitting the solenoid relay mod on here - it was better, but still not confidence inspiring. I ended up taking the starter apart to have a look - it turned out that one of the commutator brushes had all but vaporised, resulting in much reduced starter power. It may be that all you need is a replacement (standard) starter. The new engine may just be too much for your existing one? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonRHC Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Phil, every thing between the battery and the starter is effectively a resister. Better joints will help (your comments are correct). Solder is quiet good but can fatigue, crimping is more common. What we tend to do is shorten the cable runs and increase the wire diameter to help reduce volt drop. I am assuming that the battery kill switch would have necessitated an extra cable run. Check that this is of suitable diameter. You could experiment with a twin run of cable to reduce the resistance. At the end of all this you may still need a new starter but it’s worth checking. It is a hunch of mine but I think most K series starter problems are not bad starters but mis-applied starters. WRT to the 12v to 8v volt drop I don’t know if that normal on sevens but for a truck or bus application it’s nowadays 1v to 0.5v!!! WRT the starter with one burnt brush it sounds like one of the brushes has go stuck in it’s holder causing arcing and twice the current in the opposite brush which (on long cranks would over heat very quickly). If heating effect is I^2.R then the effect is not doubled but squared! Cheers Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted November 7, 2005 Author Support Team Share Posted November 7, 2005 I have now fitted a Caterham race starter and the problem is solved. It is possible that the old starter could be fixed or even that there was a wiring problem that was cured when I changed the starter but the result is that I can now start the engine easily and repeatably. The race starter is a pig to fit as the solenoid sticks out at an angle rather than sitting directly above or below the starter (as would have seemed sensible ) and therefore fouls the exhaust (even my 4-1 competition exhaust). I was able to rejig the position of the primary that was fouling but it is still too close to the live terminal for comfort. The solenoid also nearly touches one of the other primaries. Still it's enough to get me going until I can replace the exhaust system with a 4-2-1. Now just got to replace the leaking coolant hose and I'll be ready to get some miles on the clock. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 You should be able to really hear the difference between the 2 starter motors - the race one sounds much much quicker. www.mycaterham.com here 88,500 miles -1st 1.6k Supersport, '95 Motor Show car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Hi Shaun, Glad to hear it is now sorted, I still have flashbacks of your engine turning over like it was hand cranked... Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted November 8, 2005 Author Support Team Share Posted November 8, 2005 The difference between the old and new starters is incredible. As Dave said, with the old one it was like the engine was being hand cranked but with the new one it turns over and fires instantly. Unfortunately, the hose we had trouble with before is still not sealing. Luckily I have a replacement which I will fit this week. Mapping session is on the 23rd so I will report back with the results. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Hi Shaun, That hose had 3 worm drive clips on and it still leaked? gack! Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted November 8, 2005 Author Support Team Share Posted November 8, 2005 Yes even with 3 clips it still leaked . I have realised that silicon hoses might look very nice but they can be a real pain to get a proper seal on. It will be replaced with the rubber hose that came with the dry sump kit (until vanity gets the better of me 😳). I suspect that the hose might actually be damaged but it could possibly be the flat bit on the submarine pipe that is causing the problem. It was lucky my wife was watching me drive off as she saw the pool of coolant forming on the drive. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Bu66er - bought the race starter on saturday and went to fit it tonight. Started by having to grind a load more metal off the engine in situ cause the nose end of the race starter is larger diameter. Then discovered that my SLR 4-2-1 exhaust must be the "old" design and there is no way it will fit - no amount of hammering would move it far enough for primaries 3 and 4 to clear the starter. This is even though I bought it in April 2004 - after the new design had apparently been introduced - and that CC stated it would fit if I had bought the exhaust last year. Will have to speak to CC in the morning, but it looks likely I'm going to have to replace at least primaries 3 and 4. Does anyone know if it was just these primaries that were redesigned, or was it a more thorough redesign meaning I'll have to replace more than that? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted November 10, 2005 Author Support Team Share Posted November 10, 2005 Yes I had to grind some metal off the block in-situ as well - 'twas a bit tricky . I also took a bit off the starter as that was easier to do. I used a small diameter (115mm) angle grinder and a high speed cutter on a Dremel. The high speed cutter goes through aluminium like a hot knife through butter so I had to be extremely careful. Have a search for another thread on this as someone else had the same probelm of Caterham delivering them an old stock exhaust even when they'd asked for the new design. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Shaun Can't find the post you refer to - will try ringing CC this afternoon. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 it was just 3&4 that were replace - also sold as the left hand drive manifold ....... about £80 each I think . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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