Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 There seem to be alot of people upgrading their shock absorbers - but what are you actually buying? What makes one shock absorber better than another? What's wrong with the standard Billies? I'm not asking for a thesis on damper dynamics, just a basic "this will improve the handling because" kind of answer. I mean, Nitrons are pretty and expensive so they must be good - but I need more to justify spending money! I have alot of admiration for Freestyle's work , but I can't get my head around not knowing what my spring rates are (a Freestyle policy I think) so I've shy'd away from them, even though I know they'd probably improve my car hugely. So what are people buying posh dampers for and why are they better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 I measured the spring rates by placing the spring under my bench pillar drill ontop of a set of bathroom scales . The "machine" was calibrated by using a known spring rate and then I measured the freestyle ones I had Simply draw the pillar drill down 1" on the spring and read off the value on the scales then convert the Kg's to lbs I'm not disclosing the spring rates cos thats Gary's business . I just wanted to know what they were so that I could think about my handling problems . Dave Edited by - Dave Jackson on 21 Oct 2005 09:44:08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 That sounds scientific, bathroom scales again ehh??? Carbon Components Here K9 Composites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 scientific enough for me Peter . I guess I could have used Carbon Fib digital scales if I wanted to be sure of an accurate result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DohNut Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 As far as I can work out it is down to the accuracy of their construction and the consistency of their operation. The problem is that (especially in wider track) the damper only moves a small amount compared to the wheel movement. When the wheel hits a bump the damper has to work out that its moving, in which direction (at which speed for the posh ones) and apply the appropriate damping. A damper should do this the instant they move and act consistently accross the range of suspention movement, temperatures etc. At its simplist a damper can be visualised as oil moving through a hole that is blocked by a *ball bearing and spring* type one way valve - but aparently dampers have more than 200 moving parts ❗ oh and thy are shiney too 😬 Edited by - Doh!Nut on 21 Oct 2005 10:14:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyknuckles Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Alex, as Dave pointed out to me in my recent thread, why not try the Freestyle springs first and then see if you are happy? Low cost (compared to buying new dampers) and if you are not happy, then upgrade (I'm sure you would be able to re-sell the springs). I have always used Gary to setup my car and I'm 100% happy. I will very shortly have the Freestyle springs fitted to my car in time for my next track day on Nov 5th, if you can wait that long, I'd be happy to email you my opinions on the new setup. www.R300.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 Daft as it sounds - I have a set of Avo's with springs from Freestyle which I've had for a few years but never fitted because they were the early ones which were Steel bodied and rusted. Their new Ali ones look alot better. Maybe I should try them - Daves spring rate measuring sounds worth a try - might give this a go too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Spring rates are matched to damper valving arn't they So unless you have the avo dampers, there doesn't seem much point in buying springs from freestyle, you might as well buy whatever springs you want from a spring manuafacturer, such as Faulkner. Infact if you buy direct from Faulkner, and collect you will get a healthy discount off of supplied prices. I've no doubt there are good and bad dampers, but having done some research, it seems that AVO's are quite good, but the build quality is not as good as Nitrons or Bilsteins. But then they don't cost as much! The thread that ran a while back, about problems with AVO's would stop me buying them! I personally know of two cases where the dampers started to leak within a few months, and had to be sent back. If I fit new dampers, I want them to be fit and forget, so quality is what I would rather pay for. Although I believe the average driver wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Nitrons and AVO's. Personally, I've stuck with the Bilsteins and swapped the spring rates around until I liked the handling on the track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 Spring rates are matched to damper valving arn't they So unless you have the avo dampers, there doesn't seem much point in buying springs from freestyle, you might as well buy whatever springs you want from a spring manuafacturer, such as Faulkner. Infact if you buy direct from Faulkner, and collect you will get a healthy discount off of supplied prices. I'm talking about dampers, not springs. I do have a set of dampers with springs from Freestyle. I just never got around to fitting them because I didn't like not knowing the spring rates are and the steel bodies were rusting. I'm just curious as to what exactly makes one damper better than another. I accept that if I try them and they make the handling better, I should be happy, but I just like to know why and how things work and do what they do. Edited by - Alex Wong on 21 Oct 2005 10:59:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 I'm assuming we're talking about replacing dampers with the purpose of making the car faster round a track as opposed to giveing a more comfortable ride on the road. Its all a bit subjective isnt it, unless you're doing back to back tests on a track with a stop watch. Personally I've always thought that AVO's were supposed to be a bit cheap and nasty, I've never used them myself on the caterham ( I had a set on a TVR cerbera which gave no problems at all, but I never tried that car on track) though so I guess that statement can be disregarded (its just what I've read/heard). I changed to the M1 bilsteins and spring rates as per the roadsports race cars from the standard fit M0 bilsteins, but at the same time I had a cage fitted and the car corner weighted and the geometry changed. After this the car was vastly improved in terms of handling/grip etc, but I cant attribute that to just the damper and spring change. I figured I didnt know enough about suspension setup to warrant going for some adjustable nitrons (I'd probably make the car slower) , so I went for what should be a pretty good setup for the car on track given that its the standard for the roadsports series and I guess in this respect the freestyle solution is also tried and tested and should work reasonably well. In summary - I havent a clue about suspension, and I dont talk from a position of any authority, so dont listen to anything I have to say about it, these are just my thoughts on the matter. Edited to add - I guess what makes one damper better than another is accuracy of damping (ie if the manufacturor says it is x then closer the damper is to x the better it is), consistent damping through a given temperature range, weight??, rebuildability, adjustability (with accuracy), probably more factors that I dont know about. Edited by - julians on 21 Oct 2005 11:10:19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Alex, Have a chat with Guy at Nitron The nitrons can be tailored tp your requirements as they are built. Not everyone will know what they need so I explained what I was using the car for and Guy spec'd it. I suspect you can get this from other suppliers/manufacturers as well. Guy is exceptionally nice and could not have been more helpful. My car is a hybrid on chassis age/suspension and the damper caps were wrong (not Guy's fault), they were replaced exceptionally efficiently and FOC. Quality is first class, although the new AVO's do look nice. They do need to be fit for purpose, so fit and forget with easy adjustment. Gary and Len have also been great and will be helping with my flat floor set up Anthony Anthony Car is nearly ready, but I have be saying that for at least a year :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Alex, sorry, didn't realise you already had AVO's, your posting wasn't showing when I penned my dribble 😳 "I'm just curious as to what exactly makes one damper better than another" Build quality, valving etc, adjustments Took my springs to Faulkners, they stuck them on a press and told me the poundage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 A damper's quality is primarily defined by its damping characteristics. Get a dyno plot and if you've got the right characteristics you have the right damper, whether it is a fifty quid billie or a 400 quid Whites with remote reservoir and go-faster stripes. So how do you know whether a damper dyno plot is a good one or a bad one? Well for a start, nobody really knows good from bad. Everybody knows a good handling car when they drive one, but plumping for a setup and expecting it to work from day one requires that the spec is well-researched and entirely appropriate for your car, tyres, usage and driving style, other suspension settings. There are some concrete things you can be certain that you do want, such as repeatability: you want your left and right dampers to be doing the same thing. You want a sensible digression as damper speed increases. You want consistent behaviour at low speeds. You want low stiction. Your choice boils down to... ... a supplier who gives you a dyno plot and puts you in charge ... a supplier who has worked with cars to the same spec as yours and has achieved good results (whatever that means) ... whatever received wisdom tells you is good There are secondary considerations such as... ... build quality ... scraper/seal system up to road use (many race dampers do not scrape the crud off the piston, so require rebuild intervals) ... wow factor After all of these you still won't know if the damper setting is optimal or not. This assessment brought me to conclude that Nitron were best for my purposes. They use a decent scraper system and give you a dyno plot. They assure repeatable setup through use of a tightly toleranced shims. The internal design has inherent benefits in terms of minimal stiction and low speed response. Guy at Nitron is an enthusiast and is great to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Alex I'm not sure it helps but I went from some seemingly OK (no leaks etc) but very old standard Bilsteins to some shiny new Nitrons and the difference was incredible. The low speed ride is considerably better and more controlled even though I'm running much stiffer springs. Traction is in a different league and tyre wear appears to be have been reduced a huge amount (my CR500 rears from the US trip only wore a few mm's in nearly 4000 miles and I wasn't hanging around!) None of that is particularly scientific as I changed the engine and gearbox at the same time which will have had an impact. But I suspect based on the huge traction problems I had with my old Xflow that my car would have been undriveable with the old dampers and the new engine where as now it'll quite happily take full throttle in 2nd with two people in most of the time. The car also feels much more controlled in the way it deals with bumps in the road and feedback through the steering wheel seems to be better and more consistent. Having said all that I think my car is possibly a bit to stiff at the back for road use unless you have two people and a load of luggage on it! with one person it can get a bit lively and bouncey over bumps. The main reason for me upgrading was on the basis that I figured my old dampers had had enough after 40K miles (15k+ on track) and I needed something to keep the car on the road with the extra power. (oh an they are about 0.75Kg's per corner lighter than the standard Bilsteins) Cheers Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 Peter/Rob et al. - Thanks - all very useful info. Rob, I can feel my wallet twitching after reading your post! Peter, thank you for an explanation that even I can understand - and I think you've made sense of something that's always been a mystery to me. Edited by - Alex Wong on 21 Oct 2005 12:11:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 The main problem with my car (like most Vx cars) is that it will not turn in on slow corners. High speed handling is pretty good. At tracks like Rockingham (apart from the big fast bend) or Curborough, I'm struggling to get it to turn into the corners and make the front bite. If I turn in gradually, I get understeer. If I flick it in, I risk losing the back, but it usually just understeers - or I lose time trying to catch the back. The car is quite softly sprung, especially at the back. It's sprung 250lb at the front and the standard variable rate springs at the back, on whatever dampers were standard in 1997. I've softened the front ARB which has helped alot but being a bit soft and heavy (the car and probably me too!), the weight transfer in chicanes is hard work - so basically I want to reduce roll, increase front end grip, but keep the high speed stability I have. I fully accept driving lessons would help, and I only felt I was properly driving the car on the last session at the recent club day at Brands - in fact, that session reminded me why I liked track driving after a couple of years of feeling a bit disillusioned about it all. But I struggled with understeer into Clearways and around Surtees. Brands is actually not bad for my car, but I struggle big time at Rockingham to make my car work. Edited by - Alex Wong on 21 Oct 2005 12:27:29 Edited by - Alex Wong on 21 Oct 2005 12:28:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powderpuff Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 The other advantage of Rob's sexy Nitrons is that it only takes a few minutes to crank up the ride height adjusters to turn your seven into an offroader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Yup no c spanners involved just something like a screwdriver to spin the adjusters around with 😬 (ok and a splodge of silcon to stop them moving again if you're paranoid) Alex I haven't really done much track driving since I had the new dampers fitted (one wet track day at Llandow doesn't really count!) but I suspect they will have improved things. The big advantage is the adjustability, being able to mess with the ride height and damper settings was helpful trying to resolve problems. Having said that I suspect that a decent flat floor set-up and change of anti-roll bars would probably help most people! (me included!!) It might be worth have a chat with Guy at Nitron although I suspect once you've done that you may find it difficult to avoid buying them 😬 The big question is can you afford the dual or triple adjustable ones with the remote reservoir!! (cough!!) Cheers Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrolhead Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 I'm not disclosing the spring rates cos thats Gary's businessSpoilt sport I have hear it say that the fronts are 300lb NE7Club Web Site R5 no 65 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 they were'nt 300lb 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrolhead Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Lower or higher 🤔 🤔 🤔 NE7Club Web Site R5 no 65 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrolhead Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Out of interest I got a quote from Pro-Tech for aluminium shocks. They suggested 225F and 175R road/track day or 250F and 190R for track only Inc spring £95 + VAT each corner Anyone using them NE7Club Web Site R5 no 65 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinwhitcher Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 I have the Nitrons and believe you me, you ONLY want the 1 way adjustables unless you are very experienced 😳 Martin MW 51 CAT Superlight No.171 now known as:Superlight DVA 207 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Agreed 😬 As an aside my Duratec runs 250lb fronts and 175lb rears if that's of any interest to anyone, if feels to stiff at the back with one person in but OK with 2. Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 250/150 on mine. Works fine for all round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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