Dry Sumping the K Series

[Bozz]

Technically what are the pro's and con's of the Pace / Brise and Caterham DS systems

 

Bozz

 

It's not MANGO it's TANGO (McLaren Orange and Black 1.6SS)

[rgrigsby]

I could be wrong but I think the big difference is the oil capacity, if you use the Caterham dry sump bell housing then you have a lower overall oil capacity than if you use the typical Brise dry sump tank that is used with the Pace system.

 

Having said that I suspect there is no reason you couldn't use the Brise tank with the Caterham pump/pan etc.

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Shaun_E]

I believe the Pace system also has a 2 stage scavenge pump so better able to keep the sump empty and therefore the tank full in surge conditions and it uses a separate pressure pump rather than reusing the Rover one.

A conversation I had with a certain well known engine tuner, suggested that the Caterham gold scavenge pump "may" be marginal in its ability to keep up with oil flow on a tuned K-series with improved oilways. This worried me a little as I am using that system with my forthcoming 1.9K which is having the oil ways and oil pump improved. There is only anecdotal evidence for this but it is probably something to bear in mind. On a K as it comes from Caterham there would be no such issues.

The Caterham bell housing is a very neat solution but it is quite heavy and has no greater oil capacity than the wet sump.

 

Yellow SL #32

[Wingnonut]

Owners manual says K-series wet sump oil capacity 4.5 litres , dry sump 6 litres. 🤔

 

W.Nut .

 

Rosso Superlight no.087

[frankyknuckles]

I think it varies mate depending if you have oil coolers and/or an appolo tank.

My setup, CC dry sump, takes no more than 5 litres (probably ore ike 4.5) when filling from empty (this is total capacity, including oil put in oil filter) any more than this and it blows oil out to the catch tank.

I'm pretty sure that I 98% drain my system, I have the Hellier bellhousing plug mod and also the dry sump pan also has a drain hole (so I'm sure most, if not all of the oil comes out of the engine when draining).

 

www.R300.net

[Bozz]

OK so I think we've established that the CC DS system has a smaller oil capacity but are there any other pros and cons.

 

For example will the CC system give the engine better chance of survival if the pump drive is lost 🤔

 

 

Bozz

 

It's not MANGO it's TANGO (McLaren Orange and Black 1.6SS)

[Shaun_E]

If the pump drive is lost then, unless you have some sort of warning device, the first you will know of it is when your oil pressure drops to zero and the engine goes bang. Some people have, I believe fitted either a micro switch or a light sensor to tell if the belt breaks and then lights a large warning light on the dash - if you react quick enough and shut down then you should save your engine - the more oil capacity in your tank, the longer you have to shut down.

I can second frankyknuckles' findings regarding capacity - max 5 litres without Apollo or oil cooler.

I believe some early adopters had breathing problems with the Pace setup but it may be resolved now.

To me the Caterham system is probably the easy choice (hence why I went for it) as you just order the kit from Caterham, curse the cr@ppy instructions and get on and fit it. It is also a very neat install when complete - the pump fits where a power steeering pump would have gone thus utilising standard fixings and the tank in the bellhousing is a neat touch.

With the Pace system you are one of a much smaller group of users but perhaps it is technicallly a "better" system. The cost difference is not nearly as much as people say once you have added up all the bits that you must source from different places for the Pace system but there is a saving.

If I were to make the choice now I would probably chooise Pace as I will shortly have a highly modified engine. If I was fitting to a standard Caterham engine then I would probably stick with the Caterham DS kit.

 

Yellow SL #32

[Casbar]

Went for the Pace system

 

No issues with its performance and really easy to spec all the bits required! Took the car on Le Sept and was really impressed as to how the dry sump worked ie no probs at all.

 

Big plus for me, was I wanted to fit the system without removing the engine, which was easily achievable.

[Bozz]

OK let's get specific....

 

Is the Pace 3 stage pump a 'better' technical solution than the CC system using the

existing pump as a pressure stage?

 

Are there any advantages / disadvantages to the CC bell housing tank vs the Brise kidney tank other than capacity?

 

With the additional capacity of the Brise tank is oil cooling necessary?

 

Which is the most straightforward installation assuming engine is out?

 

Venting seems to be an issue generally, but what is the consensus?

 

 

Thanks

 

Bozz

 

 

It's not MANGO it's TANGO (McLaren Orange and Black 1.6SS)

[Shaun_E]

1. Yes and no. It is better in that it sucks oil from 2 points in the sump & therefore copes better with surge conditions. It is worse in that the pressure pump is belt driven and therefore a belt failure is immediately catastrophic - with the Caterham system you do have a short time to shut down while the tank empties.

2. With the bellhousing tank the oil takes longer to warm up as the large amount of metal in the bell housing will keep the oil cool longer. Conversely with the smaller capacity the oil may need cooling. In terms of location it is much easier and neater than fitting a separate tank.

3. Don't know. Less likely though.

4. The Caterham kit is a straightforward install with the engine out - it is a bolt on job although some bits are a little fiddly and the instructions are poor. You don't have to touch the internal pressure pump. I can't say for the Pace but you do of course have to mount the separate tank somewhere and I believe you have to do something to the internal pressure pump.

5. Don't know. ihave had no issues with the Caterham system.

 

Yellow SL #32

[Casbar]

With the Pace system, you have to take one of the rotors out of the pressure pump to disable it - Although that is not a major problem.

 

I run a Laminova with my Pace system.