Robert Q Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Could anyone familiar with the 2.016V engine suggest any spec's and/or engine builders to achieve 235 to 250 BHP. I know that SBD and QED are the usual suspects for this, although I'd be very interested in hearing comments from those already experienced with this sort of power. My Intended use is sprints/hillclimbs plus track days. I already have a SBD 196kit and would prefer to retain the 48mm DCOE style TB's. I noticed that SBD & QED both sell Omega pistons - but SBD go for 11.5:1 and QED go for the 11.8:1.. ? I live near Birmingham so any good supplier/builder contacts in the midlands would be useful - thanks Any comments or suggestions gratefully received - Thank guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 To get a genuine 235+BHP, you could go to my engine spec : Q450cams (nowhere near as peaky as Mr Webb thinks they are) Tappets modufied to be solid Uprated (double) valve springs +1mm inlet and outlet valves Extensive porting and matching inlet manifold Jenvey 45mm Throttle bodies Head shaved to increase compression ratio to near 12 Omega flat top pistons Steel rods (Arrow) Crank lightened by coventry balancing lightweight steel flywheel All this showed 241BHP and 285lb/ft on QED's dyno. Subjectively it feels as fast as the JPE engined car I drove back to back, but with a wider power band. I live in B'ham but unfortunately my car's in bits at the moment. I know Arnie does not approve of either QED or SBD. The other obvious route is Swindon Race Engines who are also very good but you do pay for the service. I'm personally very happy with my QED engine. Alex Edited by - Alex Wong on 26 Nov 2001 20:41:16 Edited by - Alex Wong on 26 Nov 2001 20:42:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Robert, Check the for sale section. Steve D (Bev) is selling his 2.O VX with QED 450 cams etc ;-) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Q Posted November 26, 2001 Author Share Posted November 26, 2001 Alex, That's a pretty impressive torque figure - I expect you mean 185, even so that's very good on this engine and pressumably one on the main reasons you enjoy using it so much smile.gif Your engines specification looks pretty impressive - did you do the head work yourself or by QED ? I'd like to try this but would need to be sure I Know what I'm doing first. I notice from your web site you had John Nobles map your DTA previously - I was thinking of perhaps the same once I have this put together mechanically. Pistons - Omega flat top, are these different to Omega Intruder (I noticed a set for sale just now) ? Sorry about firing loads of questions, it's a techy business engines. John, Thank you for highlighting the engine for sale - I spotted it already but I'm pretty sold on the idea of upgrade rather than replacement at the moment. Partly because I have a good Coscast head already which I fitted bronze guides and double springs to last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Robert, My suggestion is: Port head to Swindon 235 spec. Fit Swindon 235 cams Pocket std pistons Fit Steel rods Fit 48mm Jenvey SF taper throttle bodies and MBE ignition (i have a map for this spec) This will give around 250bhp or 260 if you have bigger than OEM valves, and it'll rev to 8500rpm. SAFE Alex, I still think Q450 cams have too much lift for a road engine. Alex sums up my feelings for SBD and QED well. Suffice to say that on using their skills and/or taking their advice has cost me over £10k in unscheduled engine rebuilds. Swindon tend to get things right first time. If you call Swindon ask to speak to Mark in parts - he knows the JPE spec and T/Car engines very well. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Robert, You're right. 185 lb/ft was what I meant to say. blush.gif I built the bottom half of the engine. The head was delivered fully stripped to QED who ported and built it with new cams valves and valve springs - this cost £2147.84 inc VAT. The actual headwork and build charge was £1050 + vat of this, so the parts involved cost approx £800. This doesn't include the throttle bodies which I already had. QED charged me £400 to map the engine on their dyno after I reassembled it with Roger Swift's help. This is one area where I do think they do a better job than Swindon. The engine was perfectly mapped right from the idle to full chat. Swindon tend to map the full throttle settings perfectly but I've heard of 2 engines they mapped which were difficult to drive on low revs and partial throttle and needed tweeking afterwards. John Noble did do a fantastic job mapping my engine when it was at 200BHP spec but I think even he would say that when you get much above this, it starts getting difficult on the rollers. Alex Edited by - Alex Wong on 27 Nov 2001 00:32:48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 At the risk of stating the obvious, flat tops are flat and intruders actually intrude above the block, thus increasing compression. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Arnie, I'm still unsure about these tapered bodies. Didn't that CCC article show they weren't any better than using a manifold and DCOE style TB's? Also, what's the going rate for those Swindon roller TB's that Alan's got? Would I need to re-mortgage part of my house for these? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Alex, The Jenvery SF's produce aboput 99.5% of the power Alans sexy ones do. Anything DCOE style is a kink in the inlet manifold. This lost the JPE 10% remember! Anyway the taper also is bery effective at increasing torque at midrange speeds, not that your engine is low on that..... Do you really get 185lb/ft - thats damn good. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 See http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/alexwong/vdudyno.jpg This wasn't the best run which was achieved later in the day when everything was cooler. That run showed 241BHP and 185 lb/ft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 I was actually disappointed with the figures till I drove it. I can hand on heart say my car is as fast as a JPE, but with a wider power band and that's what I wanted to achieve. What I want now though is a different matter though.teeth.gifIf you look at my power chart next to Alan's, mine the upper hand up to 6000rpm. Beyond 7000rpm, his is still producing more and more power up to 260BHP at some 8500rpm if I remember right. He does have the peakier JPE cams though but I have been wondering why mine tails off at 7500rpm. Robert, FYI, Alan's is a Swindon JPE spec engine but with some seriously sexy Swindon roller barrel TB's. Just the rampipes for these cost more than one of my throttle bodies! Alex Edited by - Alex Wong on 27 Nov 2001 02:11:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Q Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 Thanks Alex & Arnie for all the posts you made last night, I was delighted to see so many comments when I logged in today. smile.gif Arnie - I'm surprised that you mention the Swindon 235 spec can achive 250 or even 260 BHP, bearing in mind this is on standard pocketed pistons. If this is indeed the case I would struggle to justify changing pistons as I already had my standard ones pocketed just in case of emergency upgrade requirements. Do you know of anyone who has achieved these figures Arnie ? As suggested I spoke to Mark at Swindon today, he was very helpful and is going to send me a brochure with prices Etc. According to Mark the 235 kit would give peak Torque of 175 Lb/ft, so I'm wondering how Alex's car achieved 185, presumably it because the Q450 is a higher lift cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 The Caterham inlet manifold is particularly good at getting mid range torque, according to Dave Walker of CCC. I suspect the bigger valves also help. Am I right in saying the SBD kit doesn't use bigger valves and uses DTH throttle bodies, or at least a straight manifold like Arnies? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Robert, I ran with this engine spec a fw years ago. Got around 250bhp. The Swindon figures are for CARBS!!!!! Alex, the SBD stuff all use the SF TB's. The 208 kit is on a std head. The Q430 cams have an extra mm or so of lift. Robert, the pockets of your std pistons should be deepened by 2.0mm. These Mahle pistons are very robust, only disadvantage is the limt of pocketing is also 2.0mm and the weight. 8500rpm is the max you should use. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Edited by - Fat Arnie on 27 Nov 2001 14:37:37 Edited by - Fat Arnie on 27 Nov 2001 14:39:58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Q Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 Alex, As far as I know the SBD Taper Throttle bodies are DTH, although I don't have these. My engine uses the earlier DCOE style 48mm Jenvey throttle bodies and a SBD special inlet manifold. With regards to Valve sizes, I believe all the SBD kits use standard valves. Arnie - I see what you mean there is probably more power to be had from injection, not sure I want to change my DCOE ones though (bonnet cut out mod's put me off that one). Did the engine you ran to the swindon 235 spec. have standard valves or the larger ones like Alex ? Thanks again for the advice smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 SBD taper throttles aren't DTH, direct to head, they use a bespoke short manifold that contains the injector pocket, the throttle bodies themselves then bolt to the manifold. But the manifold and throttle bodies all fit in a straight line, when you open the throttle you can see straight down the trumpet, throttle body, manifold and port to the back of the inlet valves - very neat and tidy. I have had 4 SBD engines of various specs over the last five years or so, from 208bhp to anything between 270bhp and 260bhp (depending on who you believe). And, yes, even with the latest spec it runs standard diameter valves, they do have waisted stems though. To redress the Arnie bias balance I have got nothing but praise for Steve and the rest of the crew at SBD. I've never had any problems with any of their kit (except for the bills...). Fantastic kit. Not dealt much with QED much so can't comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Robert, I ran with both std valves and got 250. The DCOE bodies will cost you power. Alex's engine probably partially recovers it through the valve are increase. The JPE ran DCOE style TB's and cams with similar profile to the Q450's. 250BHP with a proper exhaust and an angled inlet manifold, about 25bhp less without. The exhaust design effect on max power will only be critical at higher engine speeds. On the subject of cutting bonnets, I cut out Matthew Aves VX bonnet for his SF TB's in about 20 minutes. No visible marks. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 So, if I'm pro QED, Arnie's pro Swindon and Graham's pro SBD, we could see who comes out on top at Curborough in May!! We'll not use last August as an example though, shall we? tongue.gif Alex Edited by - Alex Wong on 27 Nov 2001 20:28:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 I'm not sure what DaveK prefers, though I think he's a QED man but he won't count as he drives too damned fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Arse! Look at his cam cover - thats a clue.... Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Oh I seem to immune to Clark sydrome...... bum.gif Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 It must be by special dispensation by the lightly bearded one who is away in the USA at the mo. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Hmmmm. Maybe, but I hear he has QED cams inside the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 What is the most power normally seen with carbs? ie silly cams and lots of revs etc James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Dunno. Guess 260 would be about the max. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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