Marius Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 I´m currently looking out for the ultimate combination flywheel/clutch for a 230BHP Vauxhall XE. The flywheel should be full-steel and as light as possible, driven with standard starter. Clutch should be a 7.25", wether AP, Quartermaster, Tilton or whatever and mechanical engaged. Have you any recommendations about super-light flywheels for a 7.25"-clutch ? I already looked at SBD and QED. Arnie, can your flywheel be used with a 7.25"-clutch, too ? Thanks for any advice. Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 Unfortunately, it seems that all the EN24 flywheels need special starter motors. You can get EN24 flywheels for 7.25 and 5.5 clutches from QED or SBD. I think they're identical from either source, but these do need special starters. As far as I'm aware, you have two choices. see http://www.sbdev.co.uk/Clutches_&_Flywheels.htm Mine is Part no FLY W2 (3.8kg) which isn't EN24 steel (it's apparently EN08) and uses a standard starter. Alternatively, you can use FLY W4 (2.6kg) which is EN24 steel but needs a special starter. Both are for 7.25 clutches. I know I've already e-mailed you this info but I thought I'd post it here because I think I'm after the same thing as you - A flywheel that is EN24 , accepts a 7.25 clutch and can work with a standard starter . Does anybody know if such a part exists? Alex BTW, what does EN24 and EN08 mean? Edited by - Alex Wong on 24 Nov 2001 09:06:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 OK EN24 HT is CHEMICAL COMPOSITION % C 0.36-0.44 Mn 0.45-0.70 Si 0.10-0.40 S 0.040 max P 0.035 max Cr 1.00-1.40 Mo 0.20-0.35 Ni 1.30-1.70 blush.gif Means bugger all to me. Anybody know the difference between EN08 and EN24? Edited by - Alex Wong on 24 Nov 2001 09:41:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 24, 2001 Author Share Posted November 24, 2001 Someone explain please for simple-minded like me, brainwashed from exhaust fumes. Marius P.S.: You´ve summed it up perfectly, Alex ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 Marius, My flywheel cannot be used with a 7.25 inch clutch. I was told by QED that it is EN24, but bear in mind that they also told me reticular tin bearings were lead indium. Why not go for a 5.5" clutch? Its a bit harsh on the road, but you do get used to it. In road driving I now manage 75% of standing starts without stalling. The flywheel I have is ful size so retains the std starter. I challenge anybody who thinks my engine has too much rotary inertia! Be aware however that the crankshafft produces an awful lot of inertia - a lightweight crank will probably have a greater effect than changing the clutch flywheel assuming you already run a 7.25" clutch. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 24, 2001 Author Share Posted November 24, 2001 It´s now the 5th time I´m taking the engine out again and I´m slowly getting sick of it, that´s why I´m more likely to go for a 7.25". As far as I know 7.25" twin-disc clutches are easier to drive and don´t wear out ridiculous fast. And I definitly want to keep the mechanical actuated clutch ´cause a hydraulic clutch means just another thing that might leak. Possible to acuate a 5.5" clutch non-hydraulic or does it mean clutching the Bruce-Lee-way ??????? Kiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaaa-wa-hoooooooooooo !!!! Marius P.S.: By the way, what´s a proper lightweight crank for the XE ????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 24, 2001 Author Share Posted November 24, 2001 Holy ****, I´m a windbag ! Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 Marius, My 5.5" has done 2500 miles and is still going strong! Needs a hydraulic mechanism though..... Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Edited by - Fat Arnie on 24 Nov 2001 17:10:32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 Marius For road use you will only need to change to a 7.25" clutch. Qed do a standard size Ultra light flywheel that will suit your car. I,ve just fitted one of these to a friends car and it has transformed the feel of the car yet it starts on the key without throttle and idles perfectly which is more important on a road based car. This is also the same flywheel same flywheel that has been on my race engine for 6 years so I think the composition of the metal is OK. A lightweight crank is basically a F3 crank made by spiess,they are approx 30% lighter as they are only normally revving to approx 7000rpm and the engines only produce approx 200 bhp in a lightweight car which does not overload the crank. If you really want a flywheel made from EN24 then QED will make one for you 5.5" clutches are really too extreme for the road although i,m sure arnie/peter will disagree cheers Dave P.s Arnie , AP now make a 97mm dia clutch for when you can do 100% of start without stalling Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 26, 2001 Author Share Posted November 26, 2001 Thanks Dave, I´ll get into touch then with QED and place my order for those parts. I thought the whole weekend about 5.5 or 7.25 and came also to the conclusion to go for the 7.25 first. Maybe next year 5.5", hmmm,....... Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Marius, I've got as far as being told that EN08 is steel and not iron so I'm staying with my flywheel. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Alex, I think the EN ref is just the chemical composition of the bar from which the flywheels are machined. A Steel flywheel is simply made from a forged lump of steel and not from an accurate casting. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Alex, To put it in straightforward terms both EN8 and EN24 are rather old specifications that were used in the sixties and seventies to define the chemical composition/mechanical properties of various steels. The British Standard used was BS970 and it defined the "EN Series of steels". This standard has been updated many times over the last few years and EN numbers don't really apply any more as they have been updated but there are certainly modern equivalents of both these materials. In basic metallurgical terms EN8 is a medium carbon steel which has been used for manufacturing flywheels and other automotive parts for many years. It has a moderately good tensile strength and reasonable fatigue properties. EN8 has an approximate carbon content of 0.35% EN24 is a medium carbon "low alloy" steel. The addition of Chromium,Nickel and Molybdenum increase the "hardenability" of the steel. Hardenability is the depth to which a specific property will be developed after heat treatment. The absolute hardness is governed by the carbon content. It is normal to specify the condition due to heat treatment when using alloys such as EN24. For example EN24 'T' defines a heat treatment condition for a particular tensile strength, but you could specify EN24 'V' or some other condition depending on the thickness or "ruling section". EN24T is commonly used for quite highly rated components. What does it mean in practice: If the EN8 and EN24 flywheels were made from "as rolled" material there would be little or no difference in their mechanical properties. Both materials would be easy to machine in this condition. If the flywheel were made of EN24'T' it would be a stronger than one made from EN8 but in practice I would imagine that EN8 would normally be acceptable unless the unit had been designed specifically for absolute minimum weight and needed the higher strength to avoid bursting. EN24'T' is more difficult to machine as it is harder than EN8 and 30 years ago this would have caused some problems. Modern cutting tools have made this much easier and this material would now be classed as machinable. You can generally buy ET24 in a T condition but it is quite expensive compared to EN8. If you are worried I have a simple computer programme that calculates the stresses in rotating discs and if you are concerned I would be happy to quickly check the characteristics of your flywheel. I would need a sketch showing the basic dimensions. (The Outer diameter, thickness and the diameter of the centre hole and PCD and number of flywheel bolts. I would need to know max. rpm as well) I already have information about EN8 in terms of strength and fatigue behaviour. In general terms I wouldn't be too concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Just a brief comment about forgings and castings. The use of a wrought or forged alloy for components such as flywheels is quite important. The common cast irons used for automotive parts do not have very good mechanical properies, either tensile strength or fatigue properties. The typical "cast" structure of most metals is quite poor. They are generally quite brittle and have relatively poor resistance to fatigue and can suffer from quite significant chemical segregation which occurs during the freezing process. They are also more likely to contain significant defects due to shrinkage. The rolling or forging of materials significantly improves the mechanical properties and fatigue performance of virtually all metals and is why very few competition parts are made from castings other than bolcks and heads. I would accept that some of the modern SG Iron cranks are quite good but in general forged cranks, rods pisons etc. are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Chris, Thanks for all that! V. reasurring. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 Wow Chris, is there anything do don´t know ? Brilliant, thank you. I´ll let you know the details of the flywheel when I receive it so you could calculate when it will go bust .... ;-)) Talking about forged things: Several times I have been told, that the standard XE crank is a very good item which is quite strong, too. My engine currently puts out 232 BHP but will be in the mid 240s after winter-time. Would you suggest to do something to it like lightening or even go for a forged new one ?? (Please don´t tell me that, no more Dollars left...) My crank is still standard, just balanced and nitro-carbon-bla-bla (don´t know the english word for it ....). Any meat on it to get rid of ? Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 I think that the standard crank is made from SG Iron and if so it is quite good compared to the older generation cranks that gave cast cranks such a bad name. I would worry about recommending lightening a crank without doing quite a lot of work and trying to see what effect it may have on its torsional behaviour, so I would "cop out" and buy one form a company that has the experience of the specific engine type and I am not too familiar with Vx Units. If you do buy a steel crank EN40B nitrided would be the best bet and give a good fatigue resistance. I am sure that Alex, Arnie and all the other guys with uprated Vxs know all about the cranks that are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Have you thought about using 'organic' plates as opposed to cerametallic. Some people think this gives the best of both worlds and takes the edge off the initial take up phase without compromising anything else - unless you slip the clutch a lot of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 I think my Quatermaster plates are organic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 After a lot of careful consideration and cash (£550 !) I've just swapped my 7 1/4 metallic twin plate tilton for a similar design Quarter Master 7 1/4 but with organic plates. Apparently a lot of Stealth's and Ultima's have gone this route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted November 28, 2001 Author Share Posted November 28, 2001 Thatßs what I want to do, too. 7.25" Quartermaster organic discs twin plate around 460 quid at DT as far as I know No suggestions for a new crank so far ? Arnie, what about that Doug Kiddie crank, who is that guy ? Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Christ...someone's dearer than Demon Thieves ! I paid £467 plus Vat inc carriage and release bearing DK Engineering = Doug Kiddie - These are undoubtably the best cranks you can buy in my opinion. Go for a forging if you can they are definately stronger than billet although often cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Marius, Doug Kiddie generally does not sell direct to the public unless he can add your order to a batch. You want the spec crank he does as the ultralight SBD crank - he sells the 86mm version for around £1200 + VAT - SBD mark them up to £1600 and I am quite sure the bulk supply price is reduced! See http://www.racecar.co.uk/dkecrankshafts/ Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Oh and you need narrow section rods and bearings as well....... Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted November 29, 2001 Share Posted November 29, 2001 Marius I can now do the same clutch from AP at a cheaper price than the quarter Master. I must admit I find it highly amusing about all the slagging off of DT prices when nobody complains when they speak to me and get a good deal !!!!!! Call me or e-mail me at work and I will give you the price cheers dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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