Who's got the fastest 1600 K series?

[Julian Thompson]

I'm seriously thinking about getting a 1600K because I reckon it has a lot of potential for tuning.

 

What hot 1600's have you lot got and how much power are we talking?

 

8JU

[Allen Payne]

Have you had a look at Dave Andrew's K-Series tuning Web page Dave Andrews K-Series it details various tuned 1600's upto c.170 bhp

 

Regards

Allen

[murph7355]

I *think* a guy in Northern Ireland called Johnty (he frequenst the se7ens list more than here I believe) has a 180bhp 1600K. Anything between 150bhp and 180bhp is pretty "straightforward".

 

As Allen says, check out Dave's site. He's THE man.

 

Differences between 1600/1700/1800 Ks are where the power is produced in the rev range and the shapes of the various curves. I think all are capable of making similar outputs give or take a couple of percent.

[oilyhands]

You can get well over 200BHP from the 1600K if you have money to spend, the most cost effective route is Johnty Lyons/ Rob Days/ Rob Walkers / Paul Ransons / Dale Cordingleys route the specs being very similar and making around 180-190BHP on a basically stock bottom end.

 

A big valve K16 head, properly ported with piper 740 cams and converted lifters, direct to head TBs and a decent 4-1 or 4-2-1 exhaust should yield around 180-185BHP.

 

The next level up starts to get expensive, forged pistons, uprated liners, steel rods and cranks being on the cards. Unless you are capacity limited by class regs then its better to go to 1800 if you going all-steel.

 

A VVC/VHPD head properly ported with 1227 cams should give 210BHP+ provided the bottom end is solid enough to cope with 8500+.

 

Oily

[Roger King]

The 1600K is always a pleasant surprise. So far, every new mod we have tried has given more power than we expected. Believe me, this is very unusual, because most engines end up not so good as hoped for.

 

A good example of the 1600K was a new spec that we hoped would give around 185bhp and actually produced an easy 205bhp. In fact, it would have given more, but we ran out of nerve on the revs front.

[Julian Thompson]

So there we go then, as a message to potential owners, don't be put off by the smaller capacity because it still has loads of potential. I'm off to find my chequebook.....

 

8JU

[Jason Plato]

I've got a 1600 K which produced 186 bhp at Emerald . The K16 head work ( as from VVC ) was carried out by Rob Walker , who has since developed an all steel 220bhp 1800 - all home brewed .

This winter we are installing new forged pistons , liners , 1227 cams , springs , steel oil pump etc and generally giving it a top end refresh with a few mods to enable a higher rev limit and hopefully more power .

I dont believe anyone has gone this far with a K16 head and cams? .

The engine has now completed more than 10K miles , 16 sprints , and half dozen trackdays with complete reliability .

As for speed .....it produced the goods at this years Midland Speed series beating the speed through the traps of many of the 2 litre class . - the car BEHIND was a Wastefield teeth.gif.

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Dave J on 11 Nov 2001 09:07:41

[oilyhands]

Several people have gone that far with the K16 head, Tor Atlel for one, his K16 head was inserted for 31.5mm inlets and ran 835/1227 cams. Unfortunately this was on a stock bottom end and the pistons broke up before a proper mapping session was done ( the rev limiter was set against advice at 8500).

 

Robs 1.6K was a little belter but I think it may need some more head work to benefit properly from the 1227 cams.

 

Oily

[Rob Walker]

Oily,

 

Apart from having the head inserted to take 31.5 inlets what would you advise in order to get optimum results?

[robmar]

So Roger what was the spec of the 205 bhp 1.6 or are you not allowed to say ;-)

 

rob

[oilyhands]

Larger inlets will certainly help together with some more valve throat area and some work on the combustion chamber wall and some extra area around the bifurcation, it might be worth considering 32.5mm inlets since these will fit the larger inserts too. I would also consider using 27.3mm exhausts with appropriate inserts, the peak flow on a modifed K16 with 26mm valves is not so good as a stock VVC exhaust port and could do with improving. This does put the cost up however. That's about as far as you can go with the K16 casting.

 

Oily

[Julian Thompson]

Surely a 200 plus bhp 1600 isn't very nice if you get stuck in traffic on the road though?

 

At what point does the engine go from "fast road" (if you like) to "race"?

 

8JU

[murph7355]

From what I hear (and from my own engine too) modified K's are more docile than you'd think. I suspect that much of this is down to good control from the ECU and a decent map.

 

Mine's lumpy at about 2500 revs but I think that's a map issue more than anything. Am looking to get this sorted though at some point soon.

[TorAtle]

Oily,

 

my problem was most probably due to overheating. An air lock in the system resulted in me driving on Nutts Corner (I believe it's called - a track in northern Ireland) with the gauge showing deep into the red. Well that's what I found out after we came to a stop with oil everywhere.

 

The engine only made 166bhp on Emeralds rollers anyway so it wasn't the power that killed it.

 

Later I've had the stock bottom end go.

 

Fit a dry sump or at least an apollo. Get rid of the horrible 4-1 (in-bay collector) exhaust if you got it.

 

Tor Atle

[oilyhands]

Hi Tor,

 

I think heat had a part to play but the land collapse is typical of RPM related damage, I think the 166BHP was recorded with leaky (slightly bent) exhaust valves. Sound advice on the Apollo/dry sump though.

 

I think a 1600 with forged pistons would be good for 8000-8500, the rod angle is much more favourable and the crank has a faire amount of overlap twixt main and big-end journals. If you are replacing the crank and rods it doesnt make sense not to upgrade to 1.8, although the primary balance forces are worse and the rod angle higher, the masses involved are not as high as some engines and the 1800 despite its undersquare nature is quite happy at high RPM.

 

Oily

[Rob Walker]

Julian,

 

You would be surprised how well manored a tuned K is. Particularly the 1.6 with 740 cams DTHTB`s it will pull from 2000 rpm no problem and is very free revving and very smooth. The 1.8 has a longer stroke but has a little more torque so its not quite as smooth as a 1.6 but will pull from 1500 rpm. I think the good road manors are largely due to the advances in induction/engine management and running a tunned K on carbs may not be quite so refined. I am also very impressed with the fuel consumptiom which is around 30 mpg on the road. Cooling in traffic is not a problem also if you have uprated the Rad and correct thermostat.

[Roger King]

Robmar,

 

Can't say too much about the spec, but it goes without saying that we are talking about the big valve head (VHPD OR VVC), solid valve gear and forged pistons.

 

As Andy Murphy has said, a properly mapped K with big power figures is surprisingly happy in traffic. To be honest, this applies to most engines; it's just that in the past people assumed that a highly tuned lump wouldn't idle/drive nicely at low revs. Experience with modern injected cars has led to increased expectation from the customer - and quite right too.

 

We're curious to find the Ks ultimate potential. So far we've had 250bhp from an 1800 without any real problem, but ultimately port/valve size restrictions must come into play. That said, the valve sizes that we've used so far are considerably smaller than we used to use in the works BDG engines and at the time they were giving around 255bhp. Frankly, if you'd shown me the bits for a K before we ever built one, I'd probably have said that 250bhp wasn't on. The cylinder head was either designed by someone very clever or very lucky!

 

 

[Jason Plato]

The road manners of my engine are great , you can tottle to the pub in 6th at 30 mph or blatt around a race circuit with the shift lights blinking .

I have'nt suffered any overheating problems with the std cooling system either .

 

I'm not keen on doing any further work to the ports or valves as the walls are thin already , I think we may be pushing our luck ?.

 

I suspect that the ultimate 1600 K will come from AES (?) for the Rover MG Super 1600 rally car .

To be on the pace I believe they will require in excess of 220 bhp probably at around 9000 rpm , remember this is all from a single plenhm induction and wet sump running on "std" valve sizes .

Quite what is std I'm not sure - could this be VHPD ??

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Dave J on 12 Nov 2001 12:23:52

[luddites7]

What is the rough cost for getting a std 5spd 1600K (no Supersport pack) only 4:1 exhaust up to 160 - 180 BHP, am looking at power upgrades for next year !!

[John]

I thought Mike Bees has a 1600? I beleive his is in the 240bhp region. He might be along soon to confirm.

 

John

[Rob Walker]

Speedy Bees pilots a 1700 K. Bespoke Kiddie steel crank and Arrow rods achieve this capacity.

[oilyhands]

Mikes is a 1700cc special and made around 242BHP, his previous 1600cc engine made about 200 on a near stock VVC head, individual Jenvey TBs, a Caterham long 4-1 and 835/1227 cams, his current spec includes a BV VVC head and bigger inlet cam.

 

Jnessling,

 

160 is much cheaper than 180 since you can *just* get this via bolt-ons, a change of cams, Emerald ECU and direct to head TBs should get you around the 155-160BHP level for £1500ish. For 180-185 BHP you will need hotter cams (740), follower conversion to solid, and modified big valve head, basically add £800-1000 to the lower spec.

 

Dave J,

 

I doint think they would get 220 from the stock K16 valve sizes, I doubt they dould deliver the airflow required, even with fully modifed ports and throats to match, the stock valve will flow less than 100CFM, for 220BHP you would need quite a lot more.

 

Oily

 

Edited by - oilyhands on 12 Nov 2001 13:07:39

[Jason Plato]

Oily ,

"I doint think they would get 220 from the stock K16 valve sizes, I doubt they dould deliver the airflow required, even with fully modifed ports and throats to match, the stock valve will flow less than 100CFM, for 220BHP you would need quite a lot more"

 

I agree entirly , Maybe this would explain the "delayed" arival of the MG super 1600 , which was withdrawn from the Network Q rally due to issues with "lack of time for engine development " ???

 

Dave

[Brad Tipp]

So back to the original question. The answer is that you can go very high on a 1600, and the limit is determined by how much money you want to spend.

If you keep the rev limit to below 7800rpm and therefore keep the bottom end standard then about 180-185 is all (!!!) that's possible. Above this limit you need to start looking at changing pistons and liners and at that point you might as well go the whole hog and buy an R500 engine :-)

 

Remember you will never have "enough" power however much you spend. Set your self a budget and call around to see who has the best deal and the best reputation.

 

T 1 PPB - Superlight

 

"Well yes officer I'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..."

[Julian Thompson]

.....thanks very much for all your info here, everyone, I think we have all learned quite a lot from this about the 1.6 motor.

 

Cheers

 

8JU