Is this the sign of head gasket failure UPDATED

[Bewls]

Right, before I picked my car up the previous owners thought the head gasket had gone so he sent it to ProTune to get them to strip the engine and change it.

 

They did this but afterwards said there was no need as when they had the head off they said everything was fine and that the head gasket hadn't gone.

 

Since then I have done about 600 miles and a few days ago noticed the water level in the expansion tank had dropped. I had to about 200ml in to bring it back to normal. I spent a good half hour looking round the engine and I can't see any obvious leaks anywhere.

 

I did notice a small amount of "white mayonnaise" where the pipe leaves the rocker to go to the catch tank, but ProTune told me (and Norman confirmed) this was just due to condensation. (Before I brought the car it had been sat up for a long period of time with no use)

 

In the 600 miles I have done, I have collected a few dribbles of clear water in the catch tank and the oil in the dry sump canister is still perfectly clear as is the water in the expansion tank.

 

Where should I start looking for leaks and do I need to worry about my head gasket 🤔

 

Thanks,

Joe

 

Edited to say: Its a 1700 xflow having done just 6000 miles.....if that means anything??

 

UPDATE:

 

Ok, today on a short drive into town my water boiled over ☹️

 

I lifted the bonnet to find the expansion tank full, water coming out of the overflow pipe thingy, the coolant is now a slightly darker shade of green and feels slightly oily.

 

Luckily as it was only a short drive the temperature never went over 80.

 

Is there anything else this could be other than the HG before I call up ProTune? (They only just replaced HG and checked everything over a few hundred miles ago)

 

Joe

 

 

 

Edited by - joseph on 10 Jun 2005 19:23:12

 

Edited by - joseph on 13 Jun 2005 16:22:37

 

Edited by - joseph on 13 Jun 2005 16:23:57

[Normans_Ghost]

Joe, will you stop worrying. Head gasket failure will be clear. The engine will either overheat or the water will "boil" over due to the extreme pressure.

 

I've never seen an engine chuck clear steam out like yours does but it's not from the cooling system as it's from the breather hose from the dry sump.

 

Just go and drive the car, enjoy it and stop worrying.

 

Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here

[Bewls]

I no, I no, I DO worry too much, but I have just spent all my monies on it, I can't afford for it to be anything other than perfect!

 

Joe

[Big Brother]

Joseph,

 

If it is (and I don't think it is!) a headgasket going, its a very easy and cheap job to do on a Crossflow powered 7.

None of the expensive stretch bolts etc that the modern engines have, as they wern't invented when the crossflow was designed.

The head gasket is a real DIY job and really easy, even if you are not a natural "spanner monkey" .

 

Steve

 

 

SE7EN-UP!

Incorporating the Caterham Links Database

[Red SLR]

Its an xflow... you will need a thermonuclear device to break it!!

 

LeMans 2004 pics here

 

FREE SEVEN CHAThere

[stevefoster]

I was wondering if it was a K. Had it been it would be UGG.

 

I had a 1700 155 bhp XF throw a head gasket for no apparent reason. Between cyls 2/3 and when not pushing very hard at all. Easy to change and it fixed it permanently.

You can get high quality head gaskets for XF's but they cost ~£70-80.

 

I would enjoy but monitor and as others have said failure will mean water everywhere or starting on 3 cyls and white smoke for a while until what dribbled in to the cyl over night is evaporated.

 

 

 

Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here

My racing info site

here

 

 

 

[Normans_Ghost]

Steve (or anybody with a dry sumped xflow). Have you seen an xflow throw pure steam out of the dry sump tank into the catch tank. Joe's is. The catch tank has pure water with no sign of mixing with oil. The pipe from the oil tank has steam coming out. The coolant and oil levals are stable.

 

I've told him not to worry, if the head gasket blows it's a simple job and I'll do it fr him if he wants help.

 

Joe. STOP WORRYING and get out in your car and enjoy it.

 

Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here

[Normans_Ghost]

And, young man "I no" in this context is "I KNOW".

 

You're at University, I left school at 15 with no exams whatsoever - and it shows.

 

AND another thing. If you wanted a perfect car you should not have bought a 7.

 

Brilliant, great, marvellous, fantastic, wonderful, terrific, exhilrating, phenomonal, supercalafragalisticexpialadocious.

 

But never perfect.

 

Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here

[Bewls]

I'm doing engineering! You don't expect me to be able to spell and use the correct spelling and punctuation do you? 😳

 

I’m going to be driving it back to Great Yarmouth on Sunday, and then will no doubt spend a lot of time blatting round my favourite back roads then, so I will see how much coolant I loose and report back.

 

Joe

[Nifty]

Joe,

I'm doing engineering! You don't expect me to be able to spell and use the correct spelling and punctuation do you?

That is exactly the attitude that is prevalent in most of your generation.

An engineer needs to be able to relate his ideas to others, which requires a certain standard of good English.

 

Since it's going to be raining all week I suggest you use the time back in Yarmouth to revise basic English grammar and spelling *tongue* 😬

 

(Has Jase spoken to you and do you have a day booked for your car? I saw him this morning but forgot to ask.)

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[stevefoster]

Pure steam does sound odd!

Is it pressureing the catch tank pipe more when revving?

Does it 'steam' when thoroughly warmed up or only after start up?

 

Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here

My racing info site

here

 

 

 

[Normans_Ghost]

Steve, I've only seen it when started from cold. The catch tank had pure water in it. So much so that when Firts saw it I said it was rain water (Joe had been through a thunderstorm the night before).

 

The oil tank is pressurised from the crankcase. However we are assured the head has been of recently and all was well. I know x-flow's breath heavy from the crank so I'm not too worried by it.

 

The car runs fine and goes very well.

 

Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here

[Bewls]

I called Jase and he said he was going to be very busy next week but he said as it was only a 30 minute job he was pretty sure he would be able to fit me in somewhere. I left my phone number with him and he said he would call me back but I haven't heard anything yet.

 

I will call him back Monday morning.

 

I KnoW, my English is very poor, Victoria reminds me of this a lot. She got 100% in English at A level (yes all the modules! 😳) so I can’t argue with her about that too much!

 

(She got 5 A’s at A level, she makes me feel a bit stupid sometimes!)

 

Joe

 

[Bewls]

There is a small amount of steam coming out of the breather pipe at all times, hot or cold. This is what has caused me to have 3-4mm of water in the catch tank after 600 miles. It is crystal clear though.

 

Joe

[Bewls]

Ok, today on a short drive into town my water boiled over ☹️

 

I lifted the bonnet to find the expansion tank full, water coming out of the overflow pipe thingy, the coolant is now a slightly darker shade of green and feels slightly oily.

 

Luckily as it was only a short drive the temperature never went over 80.

 

Is there anything else this could be other than the HG before I call up ProTune 🤔 (They only just replaced HG and checked everything over a few hundred miles ago)

 

Thanks,

Joe

 

Edited by - joseph on 13 Jun 2005 16:20:54

[Tyrone]

Joseph,

I will not even begin to fly in the face of anything Norm has said. One thing I would strongly disagree with was the comment from Simon, it does not take a thermonuclear strike to destroy a crossflow, they are just as vulnerable as any other engine which takes the hammer we meter out to them.

 

Following an enthusiastic blat in the borders, my 1760 crossflow was idling at 2000 rpm and showed the same symptoms as yours in terms of the expansion tank. It is not dry sumped but noticeable vapour was coming from the oil breather which had never really shown before. I reduced the idle speed and balanced the carbs and everything seemed fine. But if left to run on idle after 10 minutes or so the water in the expansion tank would rise and bubble over if left unchecked. Having unnecessarily changed the head gasket last year, I first checked the thermostat (jug of boiling water, watch it move or not as the case may be), this time it was OK. The expansion pipe was too long and wasn't draining off the water properly and the timing was out. This leads to the crux of the problem. The bracket holding the dizzy in the block was loose and as a consequence the dizzy was spinning uncontrolled. I had to file the bracket to allow the pinch bolt to work. The timing was set the carbs were balanced. Sorted, quick shakedown blat, nothing excessive. I dropped an exhaust valve and f*cked no.2 piston

 

The valve snapped IMHO due to the excess heat caused by the timing being out and all the other symptoms were indicators to that. If I'm talking Kahunas and scaremongering I apologise, there is something which needs looking at.

 

Edited by - Tyrone on 13 Jun 2005 17:20:05

[Bewls]

And how come the expansion tank is still full? Is it just because it now needs bleeding? How do I do this?

 

Joe

[Chickenhawk]

I've had similar problems and when I recently bought and fitted a 'fresher' engine the guy I bought from said his did the same (he was upgrading to bike engine) but making the water system a closed system would fix it.

 

Symptoms were when driving 'nicely' all very well behaved, water and stupid overflow catch tank work as spec., when put under pressure and wound up a bit on some good roads or track day, the water gets pushed into stupid little catch tank which is below the 'water line' (all modern cars have it above) - catch tank fills up, temp goes up, kenlow sensor now fails to work cos there's no water level in system as the sensors in the same elbow as the bleed off just below the rad cap normally - WHAT A DESIGN - NOT!, engine gets hotter, more water pushes out now absolutely no chance of kenlow working!! Seconds later as when you're using the loud pedal properly it all happens fast, like you can see the temp needle rising, followed by your heart beats, then the catch tank fills up completely under pressure blows out the silly plastic bung and the water flies out all over the exhaust manifolds creating a massive cloud of steam coming from under the bonnett and past the windscreen, looks spectacular (but only when it's Schumachers engine)and exhibits all the symptoms of blown head gasket!!

 

So I re-filled car limped home and ripped head off only to find no blown gasket???

 

The solution was to fit a larger re-circulating Ali filler/catch tank where the heater was (i.e. higher than the engine). This has the pressure overflow fed into it at the top, and the bottom of the tank feeds back into the engine on a heater elbow just by the water pump, thus making a pressurised closed system - no more problems. 😬

[Tyrone]

As 'they' say, been there, done that, got the bloody tee shirt

 

Still you have to love 'em for the flames and the pops and bangs.

 

I will be changeing to a sealed system after the rebuild costs have faded to a memory of a recent occurence.

[Bewls]

Right, bleed the coolant and then thought I would see what happened.

 

First I left in running in drive way untill it was warm: No change in coolant level, everything ok

 

Then I drove in round the village for a couple of miles and checked everything over: No change in coolant level, everything ok

 

Then I went on a more bisk drive for about 10 miles, came back and everything was ok.

 

Then I went on a fast 80 miles blat (only just got back in, still 😬 😬, seeing the pops and bangs light up the hedge row is great ), coolant level has not moved, temperature was 100% stable, oil level/pressure fine car drove fanastically appart from the tappets being a tad noisey at tick over. After all this there was about 3mm of crystal clear water in the bottom of the catch tank.

 

Am I ok then?

 

The only thing that worries me now is why the coolant is now a darker shade of green than it was before it "boiled over"?

 

Any advice?

 

Thanks,

Joe.

[Tyrone]

Joseph,

 

I think I might be with Norm now!

 

I can't comment on the catch tank, my car is not dry sumped, I thought the catch tank caught oil not water.

 

[J A T Richardson]

ummm... forgive me if I'm talking b*****ks here, but my understanding of the Xflow water system is that , when it gets hot, the water can force its way past the pressure cap and into the expansion tank. However, there is a clever little gubbins in the pressure cap that allows the engine to suck the expanded water back past the cap and into the engine, but only if the pipe from the engine goes to near the bottom of the expansion tank, and that the expansion tank is half-full to start with (i.e. the level in the expansion tank is above the bottom of the pipe). (I tried to draw a diagram at this point, but the system altered all the lines when I posted it, so please be content with the word-picture.)

 

I HOPE this makes sense. With this set-up, I've only had problems when I HAVE blown the head gasket - for other reasons.

 

Stinky toy driver - and proud of it!

 

Edited by - J A T Richardson on 15 Jun 2005 06:48:43

 

Edited by - J A T Richardson on 15 Jun 2005 06:49:16

[susser]

Joe

Just what exactly, are your favourite back roads around Yarmouth.?

Apart from the Barnby Bends and Haddiscoe Dam they are crap. That came out as a statement but I'm open to discussion. Round Cantley, the Cow Parsley is up so high yer can't see. Only last night I came face to face with a tractor and trailer. How can I not see something that big ?

What about you Oldbutnotslow.? You got a favourite "test" area?

Paul.

[Bewls]

Paul, I did both barnby bends and haddiscoe damn last night

 

I to would be intersted if there are any other good roads I am overlooking in the area. My main problem is ground clearance! I NEED to get my car raised at some point before I loose my gearbox!

 

Joe

[PAC]

Sorry to be the voice of doom, but the only time my Xflow vented steam from the catch tank was 10 minutes before the dry sump filled up with water! 🙆🏻

 

Still trying to get to the bottom of it

 

Paul