Dave McCulloch Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I probably should know better than trying to build and start up a new engine having never done either before, but where would the fun be in never trying these things . I started with a base map which Martin Whitcher kindly supplied. His spec: 1800K DVA VVC head BP285H cams 744 injectors Fuel pressure ?????? D2H TBs 4-2-1 exhaust My spec is as follows: 1900K self ported VVC head (so will flow less than DVA ☹️) BP285H cams 744 injectors 3 bar fuel pressure (standard 1600SS) D2H TBs 4-2-1 exhaust So the specs are fairly close. I used the injector scaling to increase fuelling throughout map to allow for 1900 vs 1800 - used existing injector size=200, new injector size=189. This increased MSPB from 55 to 58 (ie 5.5% which is the diff between 1900 vs 1800). My TBs also need setting up, but I've aligned them by eye per DVA's instructions. When I try to start engine, it will fire, but coughs and spits back a lot. It also takes a stab of accelerator to get it to fire. It ran a couple of times for maybe 15-20 seconds before stalling (spitting as it did so). It also seemed to run at quite high rpm given how little the TBs appear to be open - high 2000s revs. Am I right in thinking the spitting is a result of the mixture being too lean? I've emailed Martin to find out if he knows what fuel pressure he's running, but that should be the only major difference. Assuming the base map is right overall, should I proceed by increasing the MSPB figure until the engine will start and run - this way I won't end up with ok fuelling for idle (by adjusting this site alone) but the rest of the map dangerously lean. HELP ❗ ❗. Dave Edited by - Dave McCulloch on 25 May 2005 13:33:06 Edited by - Dave McCulloch on 25 May 2005 22:13:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinwhitcher Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Dave, I haven't recieved your mail?? My fuel regulator is a std one which i believe is good for 3.5-4 bar? you can mod them if required (small kink in pipe , is what caterham and other peolpe do) Martin MW 51 CAT Superlight No.171 now know as:Superlight DVA 207 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Dave Walker at Emerals took my standard unit and using a couple of sockets squashed it down in a vice thereby increasing the spring load. He discovered that this is all the CC moded ones have had done to them! Grant 😬 183 BHP of black and stone chip excitement. 😬 here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tight fart Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 It may well be less trouble if it doesn't start 😬 A7 RDP pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Martin Don't know where the email went... Anyway, it was only to ask if you knew what pressure your fuel pressure regulator was. I believe the standard one for 1600, 1800 and 1600SS is 3 bar (stamped onto its top surface), and the 1800SS is 4 bar. I know you can also crush the 3 bar ones to make them 4 bar. Any idea what yours is? Not sure if this is the right tack or a red herring though? If I use the injector scaling function and assume you're running 4 bar, but I'm running 3 bar, it increases the MSPB from 58 in your map to 67 (a 15.5% increase in fuelling). I've been playing using your map and increasing the MSPB figure manually to try to get the engine to start and run, and increased it from 58 to 71, before oil leak stopped play (see my separate thread on that one!). I think I'm moving in the right direction as the engine was catching much more easily, but was still failing to idle. I was about to increase idle stop on TBs and try again, when I noticed the oil stream down the side of the block, so this will have to wait for tomorrow. What's confusing me is that at 71 I've already passed the 67 which the emerald software thinks I should be using IF our fuel pressures are different. Slightly confused . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Anyone give me any pointers 🤔 🤔 Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 My guess is that the TBs are not opened the correct amount, try closing them completely and then opening a little at a time. enusre the plugs are dry too.. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Thanks Dave. I'll give it another go tomorrow. I've sealed the VVC blanking plate with silicon sealant (only a little 😬) per your reply to my other thread. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I'm probably about to go through the "teaching a granny to suck eggs" scenario, but have you set the throttle potentiometer ? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I was about to increase idle stop on TBs and try again ...and... My guess is that the TBs are not opened the correct amount, try closing them completely and then opening a little at a time. enusre the plugs are dry too.. I had a hell of a time getting my engine to start, run and idle when I fitted the tbs Dave supplied... My (main) mistake was to overestimate (by a *big* margin) how much the butterflies needed to open at idle - IIRC it turned out to be a teensy-weensy amount and if I'd followed DVAs instructions to the letter, I'd have got there more quickly. FWIW, ISTR that when V7SLR (no longer with access to BC) started his 1900 (I was there at the time), he left the map completely alone (I was there at the time). It started and idled 'fine' - and I'm not sure that he needed to do anything special to get it in a state where we could both drive our cars the 180-odd miles to Emerald... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 IT RUNS 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 Thanks to all for their help (including Oily, Myles, Racingshoe, Martin Whitcher - apologies to anyone I've missed!). As Oily and Myles both diagnosed above, I had WAY too much opening of the TBs at idle, hence the map was trying to provide fuelling for 1,000rpm but the TBs were set for X,000rpm! Once I'd closed them right down and gradually opened them up, it fired and then ran. I ran it for probably 45 minutes in total, to get everything up to temp, bleed the cooling system, balance the TBs (surprised by this - I was expecting to hear a constant hiss through the rubber hose poked in the inlets, but in fact I heard what I assume was the valves opening and closing, with the overall volume varying), set the idle speed and check for leaks (very small weep from rad top hose, and the apollo drain plug has a very small drip). Blipping the throttle now results in an engine that picks up revs and falls back to idle cleanly, with no coughing or spitting . Two queries that I'd like the BC wisdom on: 1) The engine seems to be producing quite a lot of smoke - a whitish slightly acrid smoke (it makes my eyes run if I get in the midst of it). I'm hoping this is just all the oil burning off that was in the engine from where I built it (and also there was some in the silencer from where I removed it). It's not helped by having run the car in the garage (albeit with the front and side doors open) - it's the only concrete area we have and I needed the front jacked up to aid bleeding. How long before this smoking habit should stop? 2) There is a "tappety" noise which appears to be emanating from the front engine cover, at the top. The whole engine was quite noisy initially (and this lasted a while), but I was expecting that as the hydralic followers were all new and hence needed to pump up - one or two may have been a bit reluctant. The engine is also running new 285H cams (another reason for the first run being for 45 minutes odd, to give them a chance to bed in). This may be paranoia, but any thoughts 🤔. Still need to fix the tacho which isn't registering anything - I'll have a look at that this afternoon. Meanwhile, everything's cooling down - including me ❗ Very happy so far - at least it runs . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Dunno about the smoke. Sure it's not steam? There is a "tappety" noise which appears to be emanating from the front engine cover, at the top Erm, well if it's not the followers bedding in, and assuming you've fitted verniers (new?) - and assuming you've fitted the std. plastic belt cover - might be worth checking that the vernier adjustment bolts/verniers themselves are not chewing the backplate of the cover - this happened on V7s car. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Myles Pretty certain it's not steam - as I say it's slightly acrid and fills the garage - I would have expected steam to condense fairly quickly once out of the exhaust. Also, there was no noticeable loss of coolant during 45 minutes. And I'm certainly hoping it's not steam . I'll take off the belt cover and have a closer look. The other possibility that spings to mind is somebody (can't remember who) had a problem with the vernier adjustment bolts hitting the heads of the bolts holding the VVC blanking end plate. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 It's *always* necessary to reduce the thickness of the heads of the bolts that hold the VVC blanking plate to ensure clearance. If they are flange bolts the diameter of the flange needs reducing too. It's not unknown for the odd follower to take an hour or more to pump up and it may need considerable RPM (oil pressure) to do so. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Thanks Oily. Off to remove the bolts to reduce head thickness.... Once I've sorted that I may try a ginger run up the road and back assuming there's no other untoward noises. Think I'll wait til my wife's back home though in case I need a tow to get back 😳 Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Just removed the 4 offending bolts and reduced the head thickness - all 4 had *just* been scuffed by the backs of the vernier adjusting bolts - hence the source of the noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racingshoe Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Congratulations Dave. Have sent you an email with a question or two in it Rik Robarts - bl**dy bright orange 1900k here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Rik Email just sent. If you don't get it, give me a ring on 07881 578682. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelzebub Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Dave. I've not long started an engine that DVA built for me. There was quite a bit of smoke during the first five minutes of running. This stopped once the engine was up temp TF 😬 Probably nothing to worry about. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Dave See my other post. I've run it for probably 45 minutes now, and it's still smoking unhealthily ☹️. I'm struggling slightly with what I got wrong, as I measured all the ring gaps really carefully and set them according to Scholar's recommendation. But I've obviously done something wrong ☹️ Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Don't some of the piston-rings have to go in a certain way up? Call Oily. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Yes, they do, and they did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I think I can lay claim to this one, after taking the inlet cam in and out twice ...... DOH! "The other possibility that spings to mind is somebody (can't remember who) had a problem with the vernier adjustment bolts hitting the heads of the bolts holding the VVC blanking end plate" Re. your oiling: Stupid question but having correctly gapped the rings did you fit the 2 compression ring gaps and oil ring gaps at c.20-30 degrees of each other. ie.. there not fitted with the 3 gaps in a vertical line are they? After you've ran the car for a while are the plugs reading sooty or oily? What type of oil are you running in on... 20/50 mineral? Emerald Isle's 1st SV 148lbft @ 6091rpm/182bhp @ 6690rpm engineered for low revs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-7 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Excellent news welcome to the dark side !!! still getting used to my 1.9, you wont need to go and see Star wars - just press that right peddle for wurp speed 😬 😬 😬 enjoy. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Alex - have you actually this thread yet It no worky well yet... ☹️ Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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