Violet Elizabeth Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 You could convert to drums at the back, no chance of locking THEM first Was over at HiSpec yesterday, and asking about the 1144 (which I was planning to fit) - they didn't think they should be as bad as all that, although apparently they do squeel more than others. Pagid got the thumbs up though. But they did say that all of them need quite a few miles bedding in. On the soft pedal thing, when I got new calipers a few years ago, my local chap had terrible trouble getting the pedal firm enough. Being ever helpful he called up Lotus and managed to find someone who new a thing or two about sevens - the tip was to jack up the front nearside of the car whilst doing it. Think I posted this on here before, and someone suggested jacking up each corner as you bleed. This certainly helped my pedal feel (sorry if grandmother and eggs etc). I would also like to confess to pointing at completely the wrong bit of the caliper and asking about banjo bolt fitting 😳 The nice lady said "Well, they go in HERE usually, and we recommend 10mm M1 bolts". The (slow) birth of the Gixxerham : Pics here now with extra drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 I would also like to confess to pointing at completely the wrong bit of the caliper and asking about banjo bolt fitting blushing smiley The nice lady said "Well, they go in HERE usually, and we recommend 10mm M1 bolts". 😬 I've not had problems with squeel (boy!) with 1144s on standard clappers - but I *am* getting a bit on the car now - it might not be the fronts though - it's from the NS, and I have lost the metal plate thing that the springs on the rear pads sit against - it's probably that. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Ammo You must have misunderstood Pagid Blues are never £95 + V per caliper. That will be for the two calipers , pagids are normally priced per pad. You will have excellent cold bite with the blues 0.5u Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Rob The Pagids are reasonable at around £95.00 + VAT per axle set. Its tha Performance Friction pads that are expensive at £92.00 + VAT per caliper. Looking forward to having some pads with some bite. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 I received my Pagid 15s yesterday - £23+Vat each - £92+ for the axle-set. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 I received my Pagid 15s yesterday - £23+Vat each - £92+ for the axle-set.How much are the 1144s, in comparison? Bite me 😬 Edited by - Ferrino on 8 Jun 2005 15:39:32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 About £50+ for the axle-set for this pad-type. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Front Mintex 1155 pads for CC big brakes were £66.48, Rears were £63.31 when I bought them and this was with a big chunk of discount from Auto Performance Products Duratec SV, built in Dubai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 An update. The brakes are OK but not exceptional now. The car brakes in a straight-line (more or less), doesn't try to spin me into the scenery and has a nice, short pedal (with the race MC). ...but the damned Pagids have been squeeling fit to do that opera-singer trick of breaking a glass at 20 paces... Sooo - I took a look at the end of todays run and found the problem pretty easily... It's two-fold. Let's take a step-back and look at the discs... These were supplied with the clappers by the Kit Car Workshop - sourced from Hi Spec, but made by someone else I believe. They are grooved, but otherwise standard (i.e. solid and the same diameter etc.). I hadn't been happy when I bolted them on - there seemed to be some runout from scratch, but I didn't have an alternative (I did one of my usual tricks and slotted a major upgrade in with just a few days space before a major event). Anyway, all seemed OK to start with - no pulsing from the pedal to write home about - and no squeel with the original Mintex 1144s. After fitting the Pagids, I started to have problems with squeel (I thought it was from the NSR clapper, but turns out it wasn't). I had also noticed a sort of rhythmic 'click-click' from somewhere on the car - seemed to be synched to wheel rotation. I had written this off as something to do with the loose NSR carbon rear-wing (long story). It wasn't... Inspection of the front clappers and disc showed that the run-out is now 'significant'. You can actually see a faint gap appear and disappear between the disc and the inner NSF pad. The *outer* NSF pad has free-movement - the holes in the pads through which the pins fit are excessively-large on the Pagids (IMHO) and with the run-out, the pad physically changes radius by a few mm as the disc rotates. This gives the click-click under slow non-braking conditions and presumably gives the squeel when the brakes are used. The OSF is similar but not quite as bad. Sooo. WhaddaIdo? The squeel is embarassing, but the least of my worries. The runout will be causing knock-back and appears to be worsening. I was pretty careful about ensuring there wasn't grot between the hub and the disc - and in fact, I did take the disc off at one point, rotate it and reassemble it - and the run-out was in the same position relative to the hub. I guess my first port of call is to take the discs off and make 100% sure that the mating faces are clean and as flat as possible (don't want to replace the hubs) and try reassembly. If that doesn't work, I guess I ought to order some standard discs (these grooved jobs cost twice as much as standard - around £40 each - I can write that off if necessary. Painful, but possible). Hmmph. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I told you what to do about the squeal 2 weeks ago - grind a 30 deg taper in the leading edge of the pad ........... Then bed them in properly , none of this fannying around on the road . Mine took about 3 trackdays and 100miles on the road before they were bed in properly . Get off the bloody internet and behind the wheel boy 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 OK... ...and the runout? Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 when you say run out , do you mean that the surface of the disc is not flat ? your sentence is confusing : "You can actually see a faint gap appear and disappear between the disc and the inner NSF pad. The *outer* NSF pad has free-movement - the holes in the pads through which the pins fit are excessively-large on the Pagids (IMHO) and with the run-out, the pad physically changes radius by a few mm as the disc rotates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 Dave, Ignoring the pads for a second, the gaps between the disc-face and the pistons vary as the disc rotates. As far as I can tell, when the gap on one side increases, it decreases on the other side of the disc. The outer pad (I'm talking specifically about the NSF wheel as that's the one I had a good look at with the wheel off) is loose on the retaining pins - whereas the inner pad stays put (for whatever reason - not an issue IMHO). As the disc rotates - and effectively waves side to side - you can see a slight gap appear during part of the rotation between the inner pad and the disc. At the same phase of the rotation, the outer pad comes into contact with the disc and has a tendency to slide out a mm or two from the hub (effective radius increases - it spirals out) - as well as being pushed towards the piston. As the disc continues to rotate, the wave in the disc reverses (or at least returns to a zero-gap state for the inner pad) and the outer pad returns (effective radius decreases and it has a tendency to fall away from the piston slightly). I didn't take the OSF wheel off - but by spinning the wheel, I could hear the same click-click as one of the pads spiralled in and out - and you could hear the 'scuff' of the pads come and go. Now - what gives? The discs *could* be perfectly-flat - and the problem could be some grot at one point between the disc and hub. I was pretty careful to clean and remove material from the hub face, but it only needs to be a teeny bit higher in one point to set the disc out of true. I *did* discover (during initial installation) that the high-point seemed to be fixed relative to the rotation of the hub (rather than disc) - but I'm pretty-sure that the runout wasn't *this* bad. ...or perhaps the hubs have distorted slightly. Or maybe one of the disc-hub bolts has come fractionally loose. Or maybe it's dem damned aliens again... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 sounds like you need to get a dial test indicator on the disc face and then remove the disc and place the Dti on the hub . Or take the discs to place that has a lathe and test with a Dti . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Hi Myles, your saga continues I see. The rotational click noise your getting is caused by the runout on the disc lifting the pad against the caliper abutments. I now, cause I had the same problem with my vented cast discs on ali bells.... the disc warped. The pad fittment in the caliper is not great... there is a lot of clearence between the lower and upper edges of the pad in the caliper. I originally solved the problem by sticking a section of foam pad to the top of the pad ... no noise. But that ignored my main problem... the disc run out which was causing brake pedal vibration. I have just fitted a set of solid Mark II 1.6 escort solid dics to the frt, machined the PCD to suit the ali hub. The braking after 50 miles bedding in is now feeling much, much better than before. The vented discs I took off had a mirror polished finish.. you could see your reflection in it ....not good. Furthermore the pad looked glazed. After bedding in I'll fit a set of pagids... but things are looking up this side. Braking's better, no vibration, no noise. Emerald Isle's 1st SV 148lbft @ 6091rpm/182bhp @ 6690rpm engineered for low revs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 Right, thanks. A DTI is the same thing I'd use for setting the cam-timing, yes? If so, I might as well buy a couple instead of borrowing them as I've done in the past. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 yes . get one that measures down to a 1000th of an inch (0.001"). Your brakes will probably be like 10 thou warp and your cams are in the region of 120thou lift . If you have a Machine Mart nearby , they sell a reasonable one at a good price ( about £15 if I recall ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 Yeah - I was planning on getting the MM ones - same as I've been borrowing for the cams on and off. Works out at £40 inc theft, IIRC for a pair. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 Quick-Q - HTH would you mount the dial-gauge so that you'd get an (accurate) reading??? Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff James Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Myles, I know this isn't much use as he's currently honeymooning in Italy (pics here www.ne7ers.co.uk, Misc Pics, hoopy's wedding) but you could talk to Hoopy the Pervmeister. I believe he's running the same fronts as you, but probably has some elaborate (and ineffective) titanium/carbon electromagnetic G-sensing auto bias device fitted mmmmm (stinky dead)Xflow :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 you will need to make a stable bracket to hold the Dti at 90 degrees to the disk . I would probably look at using one of the brake caliper bolt holes . or you could do a quick check by simply gripping a thin metal rod adjacent to the disk by hand , then spinning the disk slowly - all you are looking to do is to determine if the disk has movement and then repeat this on the hub carrier . Then you can go back to Hi spec with your findings , or fix your hub . You dont actually need to quantify the level of movement do you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 28, 2005 Author Share Posted June 28, 2005 Well, I already know that the disc wobbles - so I guess I can rig something up for the hub. I should think I would need some measurements if it turns out the hub is OK though. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 You can also get magnetic DTI holders with adjustable arms. I bought a pair of imperial (to nearest thou) analogue DTIs from these boys for a tenner each. Bite me 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 28, 2005 Author Share Posted June 28, 2005 Yeah - I found them last night. I was wondering where you'd find a suitable chunk of ferrous metal to hang one of those off though - and whether the (almost inevitable) flex/movement in the joints would make the measurements a mockery... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Myles, where is this runout measurement leading to? What do you want to achieve? Surely the results of any finite thou measurement for disc runout will tell you what you already know....that is the disc is warped/or there is slight hub imbalance. It is a lot of expense and hassel to gain information that in the end is of little use. Perhaps a better route is a brake lathe. Most franchise dealers will hold a brake lathe as part of their special tooling requirements. This mounts onto the hub studs and skims the high spot(s) off the discs both sides. The great thing about it is that the machine mechanically rotates the disc and hub as one unit. Therefore the skimming accounts for any imbalance in both the disc and the hub. Roughly £30 a side. I'm not trying to put a damp squib on your actions just trying to justify any money you outlay Tim. Emerald Isle's 1st SV 148lbft @ 6091rpm/182bhp @ 6690rpm engineered for low revs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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