philwaters Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I've got the Racing 4's on my car, and all I can say is that the pedal is very nice and solid, with very little travel and good feel. HOWEVER - they took at least 6 attempts to bleed properly, with the wife pumping the pedal, while I open and closed the nipple to prevent air going back in. As soon as I got solid fluid, I would go for a 20 or 30min drive and then find it wasn't quite as good. After cooling, I'd bleed them again and more bubble would come out. I knew I wasn't boiling the fluid as I was bedding them in still, so I repeated this several time and eventually I got all the trapped air out - in fact, I think I unbolted them and left them on their side overnight! I'd give it a few more attempts being spending out more. Phil Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Hi Myles, After much discussion with various people I opted for the CC 4pot AP's I retained the standard M/C on the basis of cost and needing to try them before I lashed out on the bigger M/C. So far so good. I don’t think that I will bother with the new M/C. I am running Mintex 1155 fronts and 1144 rears. Nice positive braking good balance, no snatching and no fade either I changed the fluid from Synthetic Dot5 to the AP race fluid so I had to drained the system completely. It took at least 6 attempts and about 4 ltrs of fluid with an Easibleed to get the pedal firm! I still think that there is some air still in there and propose to bleed the system again before the next TD on Monday. I would go back and re-bleed. Grant 😬 183 BHP of black and stone chip excitement. 😬 here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 An update. I've now bled the brakes at least once a week since getting them - the pedal is reasonably-hard now - about as good as it's ever been (that's not to say I wouldn't prefer it to be even firmer, but it's OK). The brake balance has improved as the pads have bedded-in more and more - but the rears will still lock before the fronts under heavy braking. The balance is no longer so bad that I think fitting a bias-valve will be a good idea (unless I also fit an uprated MC - in which case fitting a valve will be a no-brainer). I'll speak to Hi Spec and/or the Kit Car Workshop (who supplied me) - but I suspect I'll try a Pagid upgrade at the fronts. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I have the Hi Spec ultralites on the front of my car, but with 280MM discs. I believe I was one of the first Caterham owners to fit them, it did take a bit of messing to get the fitment right. They have been superb, very powerfull braking. I can't lock the rears before the fronts and have had no soft pedal issues with the standard master cylinder. What size pistons are in the calipers? I recall there was a choice, and that may have some bearing on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 I'd have to check, but I believe they are equal-sized 34mm diameter jobs. It works out to exactly (to the nearest single-digits) the same piston-area as the std. Triumph 2-pots whatever they are. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Likewise, an update on my CC 4 pot calipers. The brakes are bedded in now and despite CC's assurances that pedal travel will improve (lessen) , that just didn't happen, as I had suspected. However, after much bleeding this weekend, I now have a much firmer pedal with what I consider to be a reasonable amount of travel so there clearly was still air in the system. I followed Gary Mays(Freestyle) advice of getting the pedal pusher to pull the handbrake on and off whilst bleeding the rear calipers and, eureka, it immediately released some air bubbles ❗ Now very happy with the braking 😬 Brent 2.3 DURATEC SV R 417.39 😬 Edited by - BRENT CHISWICK on 5 Jun 2005 23:05:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil.cavanagh Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 and my 2 pence worth.. I have the JW Alcon fronts with totaly standard everything else. They are a big improvement over the standard. The pedal is now very solid and no brake fade at all. The Front/ Rear bias is also fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 Go-on, rub it in... OK, just spoken to KCW - not a terribly satisfactory conversation - so I then phone John Frith at Performance Braking and had a good, long discussion. Ended up ordering a set of Pagid 15s for the front. Where does one get emery-cloth from? B&Q? The discs will require a scrub - especially as they've been used with 1144s. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Interesting thread. I remember changing the brakes on my old 21 after I had put the Vx engine in back in the late '90's and I had all sorts of similar issues too, got them all sorted in the end, but it could all have so much easier. HiSpec weren't THATefficient, although they did say that they hadn't done any calipers for Caterhams at that stage, they just seemed to take so long to do anything, too much pressure of work at their factory etc . I tried those awful Greenstuff pads too, what a comlete waste they were, I should have gone straight to the Pagids from day one. So far, I haven't heard a bad word about them for road or track use . Hugely expensive, but frankly worth every penny because of the lack of trouble once installed. I would always recomend the CC competition m/cylinder too, it just gives that solid short stroke pedal we're all after, why the factory don't include them in the big brake kit I really do not know. Just a quick tip about rear brakes. If they are still locking first, no matter what you try, lop a little bit off the pads, so that you are using less pad area, much easier than putting a limiting valve in the line Oh, yes, I wouldn't recomend anyone to use silicone fluid either, it really messes up your whole system, seals and all, just put in the best normal fluid you can find, it's not expensive, and change it once or twice a year, if you don't let the air in at the m/c end you won't even have to re-bleed the air out. Best of luck with it Paul J. Hard work never killed anyone ........ but why take the chance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 Good-point about attacking the rears. I did this on the previous set of pads due to the wear on the disc - perhaps I should have done the same with these.. 😳 Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Myles - slightly O/T, but did you have to fit shims/washers between the upright and the calliper in order to centralise the calliper over the disc (or does the calliper body mate directly to the upright)? I ask because I should be taking delivery of a pair of HiSpec callipers next week and would like to get all the bits ready..... Bite me 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Getting mine tommorrow Do you know the part number of the front Pagids, Myles ? The (slow) birth of the Gixxerham : Pics here now with extra drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 The standard 2-pots are held off from the upright by a pair of very-thin washers - and yes, I did find that the callipers were not centered correctly with these. I had a stack of washers kicking around (bought a mixed bag at Stoneleigh) and I just slapped a thicker washer (standard thickness - just thicker than the old ones) in. I didn't measure the gaps - just did it visually, but it looks OK. I've not written the installation up on my site yet (I like to wait until things are settled) - but there are some pics and a tip-or-two sitting there at the moment. One tip you might not have been warned about is that a standard M10 banjo-bolt is too long for these callipers - the end of the bolt will touch the back of the piston and the brakes just won't work... I forgot about this tip and only remembered when I found it impossible to get any fluid to come out of one of the callipers during bleeding... Yet more fluid wasted... You'll need to shorten the bolt before you fit it. Same will go for a straight connector if you're not using a banjo (I was advised to use a banjo, but IMHO - and without having actually tried it - there wouldn't be any clearance issues between the hose/connector and the cycle-wing stays after all...). What else? Well, the calipers have some movement in them relative to the mounting bolts (I think the 2-pots have the same, but it might just be that the holes in the lugs are metric and slightly larger than the originals). Anyway, you'll need to locate them carefully - as part of my repeated bleeding/bedding-in/fettling sessions, I noticed that the LH caliper was about 2mm too close in to the hub- resulting in a tiny-bit of wasted pad as it overlapped into thin air. What else, what else...? Well - I'm sure it's true of almost all new brake components - but they will trap a sh*tload of air that will stick to the surfaces in tiny bubbles. I eventually found that whacking the caliper solidly with a rubber-mallet helped free them - but it took a *lot* of bleeding and there might still be air in there. A racer I know locally has just suggested that you should try and let the pistons extend as much as possible without popping-out in order to aid bleeding - best-bet is probably to stick a pair of worn pads in there (they don't have to fit the clappers - just to keep the pistons from popping out. 'Owt else? Can't think of anything just now. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 If you want a decent brake bias, chop the CC pedalbox off and mount a decent pedalbox with twin mastercil. If you bleed the brakes use your compressor, you just take an old reservoir cap, drill a hole in it and with a blowgun at 0.8 bar you put pressure onto the reservoir before you open the bleed nipple. Even better is a pressurised reservoir with brake fluid, 5 min job all on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Hmmm - interesting what you say about the banjo bolt being too long - I am getting flexi-hoses with the 'straight-in union' made locally, so will make sure they fit the callipers when they're made.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Not happy with my Green Stuff pads. Want to 'phone around today for alternative pads. Will contact old sponsors Performance Friction but also want to check out Pagids. Number for Performance Braking please. Other suppliers of Pagids? Thanks AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 When I spoke to HiSpec yesterday, they asked what discs I was using, so they could supply the correct spacers so it was centered. Will let you know what they supply, as am popping over at lunchtime. The (slow) birth of the Gixxerham : Pics here now with extra drivel here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Ammo Performance braking tel number is 01600 713117 and John Freeth is your man. Top bloke. If your budget is a little tight I would fit pagid blues if you want the best fit the blacks RS14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Thanks Rob Budget is not the question. I want the damn thing to stop. I used to sell a lot of Brembo pads to bikers. They used to whinge about the price. I always asked them "would you like to stop a metre before or a meter after the parked skip?" No point trying to save money on brakes (or anything else that involves your safety for that matter). AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 Ammo - John recommended 15s for me - should be here today. When I discussed just replacing the pads in the standard clappers, he suggested 15s on the front and 14s on the rear. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Somepeople can sell sand to the Arabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 ....or refrigerators to the Eskimos........ Spoke to Performance Friction. They wanted around £92.00 + VAT per caliper. I was hoping to blag some for old times sake but it didn't happen. Performance Braking were extremely helpful and after a long conversation we agreed to leave the rear pads alone and try Pagid Blue in the front. My car is used 95% on the road and a few track days a year. I want cold performance first of all. If they also work on the track that is a bonus. If they don't do the job I am happy to experiment with different materials until I find something I like. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 Interesting. I told John I was fast-road witha couple of trackdays... ended up with RS15s... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Myles I want the brakes to work from cold. This is my main requirement. I will try the other Pagid pads if the Blues don't do what I want. I also have solid discs and am not heavy on the brakes. Each individual requires a different solution. Going back to bikes, which I know a bit about. Two identical bikes on the same race team with two different riders will sometimes have different mastercylinders and pad materials to suit the individual riders. You have to experiment and find something you like. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 Update from a blat to test something completely different... Haven't fitted the pagids yet - don't have any emery/garnet paper... ...but a couple of brake-tests (I had started to become concerned about pulling under heavy-braking) showed that the balance is shifting towards the front at long-last. Bite is pants with teh 1144s and the pedal is too soft for my liking - so the Pagids will go on at the first opportunity. I'm also suffering from (not that this has changed - I always had it before) from the dreaded 'OSF locking first' syndrome when the fronts *do* choose to lock 😬 where's that thread.... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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