Heskyboy Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 Out for a run on Thursday night (about 20 miles) overheated near home. No coolant in expansion tank, fluid all over engine bay. Refilled this morning got engine up to temperature, re bled the system and cannot get the ********** thing to leak. No evidence of water in oil????????? No clues Any ideas *confused* *confused* 6ft 4ins now fit easily due to Tillets. however teeth black due to aeroscreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 Assuming it's a K series check all the hoses & then have a look at where the water rail fits to the head at the back of the head on the left hand side. After this look at the inlet manifold gasket. Have a careful look around the thermostat housing on the front right hand side of the block & finally examine the waterpump (this is behind the cam cover but if it leaks water can get onto the alternator belt & it's everywhere). Is there a pin-prick hole in the rad? Oh & it might be an idea to check the cap as they're notoriously unreliable. Edited by - Mick Day on 14 May 2005 14:26:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heskyboy Posted May 14, 2005 Author Share Posted May 14, 2005 Thanks Mick will look later today, its a real mystery? 6ft 4ins now fit easily due to Tillets. however teeth black due to aeroscreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heskyboy Posted May 15, 2005 Author Share Posted May 15, 2005 Have checked everything and still cannot find a leak. The residue of the leak is everywhere including on steering rack, front of the apollo tank etc. This presumably indicates a red leak or a hose leak forward of this. If there was a small radiator leak hardly apparent at at idle, how much could it increase at high raod speeds? Water pump looks ok. Inlet to head from water rail o.k Ideas please *confused* *confused* before I replace rad for safety sake, should I risk radweld or equivelant? Cheers Hesky 6ft 4ins now fit easily due to Tillets. however teeth black due to aeroscreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Check the expansion tank or maybe just replace it. Get the rad pressure tested. However I'm v suspicious of the pressure cap so change this 1st. At idle the pressure in the system is not that great but once everything gets hot & the water pump is rattling round at x rpm the pressure will increase. I'd be very wary of putting rad weld in . For an everyday cheapy tin-top OK, but................ Check out this product hereif you insist on putting something in the rad. No connection other than I know one of the directors. Another thought: check out the small hose which runs from the front of the inlet manifold to the expansion tank. The clips on mine were done up too tight cutting through the hose, coolant everywhere. Edited by - Mick Day on 15 May 2005 12:19:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heskyboy Posted May 15, 2005 Author Share Posted May 15, 2005 Thanks Mick, Have had another 10mile run giving it plenty, still cannot get a leak out of it. Will take your advice and change the expansion tank first before more radical change. 6ft 4ins now fit easily due to Tillets. however teeth black due to aeroscreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Does it do this after you've driven it hard and got it really hot, but not when you've driven it gently ? If so, try this - drive it hard but try not to let it 'boil over'. Leave it to cool, preferably overnight and then start to undo the expansion tank cap. If you hear air hissing out do it up again and undo the radiator bleed bolt (top right as seen from the front). Let all the gas escape (but no fluid) then do it up again, then remove the expansion tank cap again. This time, if the fluid level is normal you are probably looking at head gasket failure. The 'air' is combustion gases being forced past the gasket, but it only occurs at high revs or temperatures, so a normal coolant analysis wont show it up as these tend not to replicate the same conditions. There appears to be a pattern of HG failure with a K-series which doesnt involve water in oil or vice versa, nor does a coolant analysis show anything up (I had 4 done, only 1 gave a 'positive' result and all the others were clear). There have been at least three cases that i know of which all started out just like yours, e.g the full story of mine is here http://www.blatchat.com/T.asp?id=52540 Sorry to be the possible bearer of bad news, but I wasted 5 months trying to figure out what was wrong with my car before the head came off and we found evidence of HG failure. I'm not saying you have an HG failure, but it does look awfully like mine did.... ☹️ Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Nick, my experience of head gasket leaking cylinder pressure into cooling system is that it will "blow" past rad cap within minutes of starting. Not saying you're wrong but 150psi into a pressured system of 15psi should be noticable fairly quickly. I would get the engine and compartment washed down so there's no sign of coolant. That way you will be able to see the signs of the leak before it "blows" up again. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Mick, is K-Leak just for K series engines or can Ford and Vauxhall use it as well? Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Also check engine mounts as i had a great gusher of a leak and it turned out to be the engine moving and pulling a hose and giving a leak. The happy handle made me do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Norman, I suggest you read my thread Mine would behave for days at a time until it was driven hard and then it would just leak a tiny bit of gas past the gasket. Over a period of time it would gradually build up enough pressure until there was enough to blow the pressure cap. It passed three out of four block tests with flying colours , two of which were done after the one that failed, if you see what I mean. Eventually we came to the conclusion there was nothing left to check and when the head was taken off (not by me) there was evidence of a tiny blow-by. The tow other cases I know of were almost exactly the same as mine, and they all started off just like this one Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Edited by - Nick Woods on 15 May 2005 21:35:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heskyboy Posted May 15, 2005 Author Share Posted May 15, 2005 Nick, The car has just had the supersport conversion at CMidlands. I will try giving it a thrashing one night this week, if it follows those symptoms its back to Caterham. Cheers Hesky 6ft 4ins now fit easily due to Tillets. however teeth black due to aeroscreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Hi Hesky - if you had the 'normal' supersport conversion they only replace the cams and ecu so the head isnt lifted (if you had the supersport R 1800cc conversion then its different). Assuming it is the HG, you may find it cheaper to find a local engine specialist to do it for you, and if the head does come off make sure they check the liner heights are equal and also check the head for cracks, porosity and flatness. Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy the 7th Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Heski Sorry for the late reply (Nick you won this one 😬) Follow Nick's thread (it's the same as my symptoms) Mine was fine upto 5500 rpm and over for very short bursts. Even did Stoneleigh two years ago (200 miles of giving it 'semi' large). then next blat out of only 20 or so miles gave it VERY large! to rev limiter a few times and got covered in coolant. After the head was removed there was only perceptable staining on the HG copression ring on no3 cylinder. Head skim, liner height checked within tollerance new Rover HG (new rover is similar spec to Sauter HG with metal peg, not plastic) Nick & my problems were the same. Normal (read boring) road use and everything is fine. Give it Large & the expansion tank throws it's contents everywhere. Hope you sort it rog C7 TNT - it's like dynamite (Honda Irish Green and Peugeot Graphite grey ) Edited by - roger heeley on 16 May 2005 16:37:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Nick, sorry I wasn't doubting you, just saying I've never come across what you describe. Normally when the seal between the cylinder and the water jacket goes the pressure of the cylinder just blows past. I've seen water jets coming out the top of rads due to this. I suspect it may be something to do with the liner/gasket seal. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heskyboy Posted May 16, 2005 Author Share Posted May 16, 2005 Thanks for the advice guys, it is a pretty wierd problem. The head gasket was replaced when the Supersport conversion was done, as the head was skimmed at the same time. To be safe I have spoken to Caterham today, who were very helpful indeed and it has gone back in for a check. I will keep you posted. Cheers Hesky 6ft 4ins now fit easily due to Tillets. however teeth black due to aeroscreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 No problem Norman - most of the people I spoke to had never come across anything like it either. In fact, I spent a lot of time trying to find and fix a problem that lots of very knowledgeable people had convinced me couldnt possibly be gasket failure. I guess its something to do with the unconventional way that the K series is designed that causes it to behave in such an unexpected way. Hence, Roger & I often pop up on the 'my car is blowing coolant' threads to offer the benefit of our experience Hesky - good luck, lets hope they fix it for you. Nick Red and Black 1.6K supersport visit Carrotland.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Mick, is K-Leak just for K series engines or can Ford and Vauxhall use it as well? Norman: it can be used in any engine, called K-leak as the company is called Kalimex. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Mick, I was joking you know. Nick, The K engine isn't as unusual as you may think. Lots of engines have liners similar to the K. What makes the K different is the very small coolant jackets and the bottom end. The small jackets lead to a less rigid block which may be why head gaskets fail so often. However it's weakness is also its strength (thats upside down!), I've never seen an engine that light (except some of the Coventry Climax Engines from the 50's & 60's) Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Norman I thought you might be taking the Michael but there again just being helpful. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 This happened to me years ago - on a completely different car. I had not secured the radiator cap down fully! Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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