Finalizing specs on new SV

[yankeedoodoo]

I would strongly recommend a Duratec over the Zetec, and I have an excellent 210HP zetec in my car. Reasons: Duratec weighs about 40 pounds less, which overcomes most of the weight disadvantage an SV carries. Even more importantly, its' oversquare design breathes much better and produces a lot more torque. Duratecs engined cars really hook up coming out of corners on the race track, as I observed from behind too many times a few weeks back!! A gent here had Cosworth build one that dynoed @ 242HP with a virtually flat torque curve @ 200 throughout the rev range (from very low to redline). A zetec can never do that!! Caterham knows what they are doing in switching to the Duratec for their ultimate car; you should "shave on their whiskers" and spec one in your new car. I would!! And be sure to get the ZF clutchpak LSD.

 

Torque really helps 7s accelerate, and Duratec offers the most. I would expect Caterham to offer a Duratec car inthe next 0-100-0 challenge.

 

Rumor has it that a CSR is on the water or imminently so.

 

You can see some yellow cars @ californiacaterhamclub dot com. The factory yellow is a good, bright shade.

 

Consider a 5 speed from SPC or Road & Race.

[Jim E]

JohnCh, thanks for the input. Your hands-on experience closely mirrors what my transition will be as far as the power bump is concerned (allbeit with a 15 year gap in the middle for me).

 

Neil Cavanagh mentioned that the LSD was a bit noisier and introduced some "shunt" (?) into the driveline, but was still a must. Do you have any observations on noise, other characteristics, etc?

 

Jim E.

[Jim E]

yankeedoodoo, it sounds like I perhaps made some wrong assumptions about engines.

 

The impression I had was that the Duratec engine and the Zetec SVT engine (not plain Zetec) were essentially the same engine, but from what you said that isn't the case.

 

Cody at Rocky Mountain Sports Cars sent me power and torque curves for the new Zetec SVTs, both with and without the cam upgrade. I don't think I can post them here, but if you or anyone else wants them give me your e-mail address and I'll forward them (or of course you could contact RMSCI).

 

The standard SVT produces about 210HP @ 7000RPM, (allowing for a 15% drive train loss according to Cody). The torque curve looks impressively flat to my eyes, staying between 150 and about 162ft-lb over the range 2200-7000RPM..

 

The SVT with Stage 1 cams produces about 230HP @ 7000RPM. The torque drops off a little at lower revs, but it still stays between 150 and 175ft-lb over the range 2900 - 7000RPM. Not quite in the league you're talking about, but still plenty good enough to get me into the mid 3s for a 0-60 time.

 

Jim E.

 

 

[JohnCh]

Jim,

 

I am running the Ford viscous coupling unit from the Sierra. I believe some people are using these in Caterhams (I have a Westfield) but for a new car you are probably looking at either a plate-type LSD from the factory or a Quaife. Consequently I am not sure how much relevance my observations have with respect to noise and clunking. That said though, the only time I am aware that I made the change is when I accelerate out of a corner...or do donuts ;-)

 

-John

 

Throttle Steer

[yankeedoodoo]

Jim, The zetec and duratec are completely different motors. Ford seems to moving the Focus from the zetec to the duratec. The duratecs roots are in Japan, where Ford got it. The bore & stroke are virually "opposite" and the zetec is cast iron while the duratec is ally, hence lighter. I believe that RMSCI does not offer the duratec at this time. Since Caterham is going that way, I suspect that at some future date RMSCI will have an offering. This would never stop me from specifying a DURATEC if I were ordering a new car today, it's what Caterham UK is already doing (THEY MUST HAVE GOOD REASONS FOR GOING DURATEC!). Also, you should be aware that the inlet will be on the left and exhaust will exit on the ride side of your car, from the drivers seat view (additional evidence that these are two completely different motors).

 

Go for the highest torque motor, the duratec. I regret that it was not available when I ordered my 7 and would not get any other motor if I had it to do again. The stock duratec head flows better than a worked-on zetec head. That makes it much easier to obtain more power with upgrades.

 

 

[yankeedoodoo]

Jim, If Ford is to be believed a standard SVT motor produces about 170HP, as installed in the SVT Focus. I'm curious about how it gains 40HP when stuffed into a 7. The free flowing exhaust is likely good for some HP, but 40 (almost 25%) seems rather optimistic, to me. Prior magazine tests of SVT engined cars provided by RMSCI estimated power at around 180-190HP, as I recall.

 

Caterham never offered the zetec as a factory motor in the UK. It has been offered here because the Vauxhall and Rover "K" motor are not available in the USA. The zetec is the past, the duratec is the future. Make a power grab, go duratec. If you run your cars with other 7s and they have duratecs you will eventually want one too! I do, and I'm not alone among higher HP zetec owners. I crave the torque that duratecs have shown me on the track.

[yankeedoodoo]

Jim, On techtalk today there is another thread titled "duratec rolling road results". I have never seen zetec numbers any where remotely close to the figures being reported from duratecs on dyno. Better breathing=more power!! The entry cost on both motors is very comparable, the results are not, in my opinion and actual observation.

[yankeedoodoo]

Jim, On techtalk today there is another thread titled "duratec rolling road results". I have never seen zetec numbers any where remotely close to the figures being reported from duratecs on dyno. Better breathing=more power!! The entry cost on both motors is very comparable, the results are not, in my opinion and actual observation.

[Jim E]

yankeedoodoo, sorry for the pause in getting back with you. Real life got in the way and I had to go out and earn some bucks.

 

I greatly appreciate all the feedback from you, and based on that and input from JohnCh I'll be doing a bit more background research before finalizing the engine details. If you give me your e-mail address I'll send you the power and torque curves for the SVT. I'm just about to go look at the Duratec thread.

 

Jim E.

 

 

[yankeedoodoo]

Jim, Hope you made the BIG BUCKS!! I don't have an axe to grind on this, I have just seen that the duratec is the best alternative.

 

The guys @ RMSCI are very nice and professional and will likely offer a duratec at some point in the future (CSR).

 

I love the zetec that I have and any one that has driven it remarks on what a good spec it is. Having said that, the duratec simply starts at a much better design point, larger bore/shorter stroke.

 

All (well most...) of us that track our cars would contemplate sale of wives and children to get 40 pounds (3%) out of our cars and improve the torque by gobs at the same time. These duratecs can break the wheels loose in 3-4 gears almost at will in the higher specs.

 

Keep doing your homework on this. I'm sure that Caterham UK did the same!!

 

YHM

[Jim E]

No probs on the axe grinding, yankeedoodoo. I'm taking everything you say for what I guess it really is - the enthusiastic advice of someone who lives and breathes this stuff and know more about it than I do.

 

For me, I'm happy to get as much good input from as many sources as possible, even if some of it is contradictory on occasion. As I said to JohnCh earlier I know I'll be very happy whichever engine I ultimately go for; I'm just trying to maximize the satisfaction level by knowing I'm getting the best bang for reasonable bucks. Even a 100HP live axle Seven would rule compared with virtually anything else on the road as far as fun was concerned.

 

I'm looking hard at the Duratecs. If for some reason that doesn't pan out (cost, availability, etc) the Zetec SVT won't be at all hard to live with.

 

Nothing to do with Zetecs versus Duratecs, but as far as torque is concerned and all other factors being equal, doesn't a long stroke tend to give more torque than a short stroke?

 

Jim E.

 

 

[Dobuy]

Jim,

It seeing as you are in the US it would be worth you looking at Marcy Motorsports Duratec stuff and of course Cosworth Racing. Both can supply you an engine ready to go at a reasonable price.

 

Duratec Se7en SV, built in Dubai, pics here!

[Jim E]

Dobuy, thanks for the tip. Cosworth Racing - DUH! why didn't I think of that?

 

Jim E.

[Dobuy]

Long block 250bhp Cosworth engine available here just plug and play

 

I think you could do it a lot cheaper if you wanted to get an engine from Kansas Racing and do your own build, with parts supplied by marcy, however the Cosworth build would be simple reliable and a good name to have.

 

Personally I was going to all this trouble on a new build, I would order a CSR 200, then upgrade it later for more bhp.

 

Duratec Se7en SV, built in Dubai, pics here!

[Jim E]

Dobuy, now that link looks interesting. It just isn't going to happen that I'll have the time and stamina to do much with the engine other than drop it in and tie it down, and as you say a ready-built product with the Cosworth name behind it should be a reliable way to go. Any money I saved on writing checks going the self-build route would probably be more than offset by my lost time and increased frustration. Once I get my kit - maybe August if I order it in the next couple of weeks - I'd like to have it on the road within a month.

 

I like most of the technical specs on the CSR, but I prefer the existing SV for looks, particularly inside.

 

I've already e-mailed Cosworth USA, Marcy Motorsports, and Autocourse Inc for more information on Duratecs, and I'm just about to follow that link again and contact Steeda. Currently I'm looking at spending no more than $11k for a complete engine and gearbox assembly with all ancilliaries. A new 220HP Zetec SVT from RMSCI with aluminum flywheel and 5-speed box lists for $10,900, ready to go.

 

Thanks for all the help you're giving me with this.

 

Jim E.

 

 

[Dobuy]

Jim,

Don't think you could do the Cosworth on that budget as $8500 will/may not include baffled sump, injection, flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, starter motor, alternator and of course gearbox.

You then need a Duratec exhaust etc.

 

Not sure what you mean about the SV's looks, particularly inside. The CSR as standard has the same dash as the SV, you pay extra for the curved wonder. Really they should look pretty well identical in the cabin.

 

Duratec SV, built in Dubai

[Jim E]

Dobuy, I should hear fairly soon whether or not a ready-to-go version of that 250HP Cosworth + gearbox will fit my budget - I'll let you know.

 

Are you sure the standard interior on the CSR is close to the existing one in the SV? What little I've seen so far (mainly on the Caterham UK website) seems to suggest that those swoopy curvy bits are part of the frame structure, and Caterham also say that the traditional flat switch stuff has been "completely dispensed with". The UK price list does mention a "CSR modular dashboard" as an option though - is that what you're referring to?

 

Externally it's the inboard suspension I don't like the look of. Don't get me wrong - I don't doubt it's technically superior to what it replaces, but I want the front suspension hanging in the breeze where I can enjoy the look of it.

 

Jim E.

[Dobuy]

I know that the swoopy dash is an extra on the CSR, standard is the normal flat dash.

They may well have got rid of some of the switches, as they have stalks for indicators & lights on the CSR (at least with the swoopy dash).

Would be worth checking what the layout will be with the conventional dash.

 

Gazing at your front suspension 😬, that also means you have to keep it clean and shiny , at least "if it floats your boat that much".

I would rather hide mine away. Having seen the CSR in the flesh, it looks a lot nicer than my SV.

 

Duratec SV, built in Dubai

[One day soon]

Jim,

 

If you are having seconds thoughts about the CSR (definitely available cheaper in the UK without the new dash) I was reading in the EVO magazine that Jez Coates at the Caterham Factory has been put in charge of getting the CSR 200 through the Homogolwhatsit in every country outside the UK. It may be worth contacting Caterham direct to understand what that means for the US market.

 

Rgds

 

ODS