Snapper Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 I have a 1.6k Supersport and I am thinking about having throttle bodies and a reprogramable ECU fitted. When my car was last on the rolling road it stated I had around 140 bhp. What extra bhp will adding throttle bodies give me with a reprogramable ECU? While this work is being done what else should be done to increase the power with out to much extra expense? Also I understand that some ecu's suffer from a lack of power when at altitude, giving problems in performance. The Emerald ECU has been mentioned has any one had any experiance with it at altitude? And does anyone have a web address for them and a contact phone number? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 About 160 bhp, After that its a head porting, bigger valves and cams job which will cost about another £1000. Emerald Telephone number is 020 7737 7114. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 I could be wrong here, but I don't think it's ECU's themselves which are the problem at altitude. More that if you don't have a lambda sensor and the facility for the ECU to adjust for when the engine runs rich or lean, it cannot compensate for the lack of oxygen at altitude. In reality though, I don't think this is an issue. My car ran fine at 3500m altitude (better than I did without the heater and at minus 8 degC!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 If you regard 160 as the max. you're likely to get you won't be disappointed. The main things that doing this will do for your car are: - improved throttle response (greatly IME) - a bit of an uplift in the figures - an essential step in any future upgrades you may want to do - a nicer engine sound (don't underestimate this for putting a grin on your face). You could change cams at the same time (300 quid or so) and be more certain of getting the 160 (and giving you more scope later on) - check out November's CCC or give Dave Walker at Emerald a call. Also you must read Dave Andrew's site (search the forum and you'll find links aplenty). Alex is right on the altitude thing - some ECUs can compensate for barometric changes I think, others don't. So you could say the ECU was at "fault" I guess. This may or may not be an issue depending on how/where you use the car - but I've not experienced any hassle with mine (other than a rough map between 2k-2.5k revs which needs sorting anyway!). Then again, I've yet to take mine to the Alps and Boxhill is hardly a huge change in altitude! If you make the change, make sure you take it back to the same RR so you get a good before and after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren S Smith Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 Following the advice of various blatchatters I've ordered an Emerald ECU for my recently purchased SLR. I sincerely hope that it is going to solve the problem which my car has (I've been told that altitude is a problem). Many people have told me that the MEMS in a bodge and that the Emerald will solve the problem of lack of power and apparent misfiring under load lower down the rev range. Jamie, If it were me, I'd upgrade in stages so that so you can assess the impact of each change and also conserve cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 Snapper,results of my DTHTB conversion. Spec 1600cc Supersport Std, then converted to Jenvey DTHTBs and Lumenition ECU. Rev limit upped from 7600 to 8000 also. Result 150bhp at the fly. I would say if you want to see 160bhp you would need to go for a slighlty higher cam or long sessions on the RR. Are you doing the work yourself? I did the conversion myself with help of 2 other members and it was not too bad. I reckon I could now do the whole conversion in a weekend. Lorne Mason has put together a video to help with the conversion. It is on an Elise but its the same engine so is worth having a look at . If you want to buy a head to get ported etc I may have one in the next couple of months or so. The problem is once you start with upgrades it is very hard to stop. I personally was very impressed with the DTHTB conversion but it has very quickly turned into frustration as now the engine is getting too much air for the small valves etc and I know that with a few more bits it could give much better power. My plan for the winter is to go for biger valves and cams etc, this will result in much better power. Definatly get in touch with Dave Walker and Dave Andrews. They know all there is to know and are very friendly. The one thing I regret about the upgrade was not doing a before and after run on the rollers. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted October 21, 2001 Author Share Posted October 21, 2001 I won't be doing the work myself. But which make of throttle bodies should I look at getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 Jenvey, QED and Lumenition (have I missed anyone) are all made by Jenvey. These are the ones to get (Direct To Head [hence DTH] so don't need a manifold and can be matched to the head inlets easily). Powertrain Projects also do some DTH ones that I believe Caterham are now using. Chris Clark also has these on his "project". These should work just as well as the Jenveys and are (I think) similarly priced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I've started work on my incremantal upgrades. I can email the Excel spreadsheet results to anyone if they contact me direct. In a nutshell: 1. Baseline on MEMS = 195bhp 2. Fully mapped Emerald M3DK = 197bhp 3. Change cam timing, using same M3DK map as above = 200bhp Next stop, head porting and bigger valves, then another RR session. After that it'll be DTH TB's (I currently have the Rover KV6 TB's) so it'll be interesting to see what improvements an "ultimate" TB will offer over a severely compromised setup. And then.... maybe cams.... maybe even better exhaust.... steel crank and rods.... arrrgghhh.... where does it stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I've seen Chris bum.gif Clark's PTP 'bodies, and they are a work of art. VV nice indeed. They look expensive though, and I didn't ask him how much. He'll be along later, 'cos we're talking about him....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I've fitted a fair few sets of the Jenvey/QED units and they are excellent, I'm not sure what the overall length comparison is like with the PTP ones, the PTP ones look a little longer but I couldnt be sure. The QED/Jenvey ones will accept the original fuel rail/injectors and fuel pressure regulator which is convenient and saves some moolah. Current pricing is £425 + VAT, although if sufficient parties were interested QED will negotiate a bulk discount, I think I managed to shave off £100 per pair on the last bulk purchase. The jenvey throttle linkage is a little expensive but an alternative is available from Bernard Scouse who also makes a very good airbox kit for the Caterham which is custom designed for the QED/Jenvey bodies. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 The Jenvey DTH throttle bodies work fine, but are a fiddle to sort out with throttle linkage, coolant air escape bleed and the only suitable place for an air temp sender is in the filter back plate. The Jenvey throttle linkage is a sick joke; it is crap and only good for lining the bin and is worth no money. The aluminium trumpets are rubbish and fall to bits. The matching of the bodies to the ports is a significant job with more metal than is strictly required needing to be removed. It is easy to imagine improvements over the Jenvey offering and Chris seems to think that the PTP bodies offer that improvement. I'll be interested to see when he has everything sorted, although with a sorted Jenvey DTH installation I have no need to change. I just wouldn't encourage people down the same route if there is an easier option available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 As with previous comments , dont buy the linkage . I used a design from Rob Walker , this is simple to make , uses the original throttle cable and provides a perfect pedal / throttle lengh ratio .You can see it here. I could copy you the drawings ( I'm sure Rob wont mind ) if you drop me a mail . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I would consider doing the conversion yourself esp if you are just doing the DTHTBs without cams etc etc, unless you are getting them fitted FOC.... X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Peter, all the issues you raise other than the matching of the manifold flange to the head (and the PTP ones will need matching too) are addressed by Bernard Scouses airbox kit, it includes a non-flexible!! correctly aligned throttle bracket which gives perfect geometry for the throttle and retains the stock cable, GRP trumpets which dont fall apart, an aluminium backplate which allows full retention of the existing injection hardware and a large airbox and trunking custom made for the Caterham and all fixings and fastenings. It is also ridiculously cheap at £235 for the complete kit. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Oily , What total length intake does Bernards intergrated air box result in ? Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Total induction length is the length of the TB (120mm) plus the 50mm trumpets, any longer than this and there would be extreme difficulty in containing the airbox under the bonnet line. The boxes dimension provide for a large clear airspace behind and around the trumpets, around 100mm more I think. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Well as I have PTP ones I rather like those! Bought these thanks to Bob! Bob Corb(ishly) of Cosworth tested the Jenveys (Luminition ones are re badged Jenveys) against the PTP ones and said "No comparison; go for the PTP's"!!! There is a lot less work to getting the PTP DTH TB's sorted in terms of boring to suit intakes on ported engines etc.I believe the opening on Jenveys is about 33mm; the PTP ones are 37mm.The throttle linkage works fine straight away and I used a std fuel rail from a std 1400. ITG filter assy fits under the bonnet no problem. The water pipe at the front is already fitted; IACV ready to go; temp sensor screws straight in so installation is easy. It is now the std. fitment for factory VHPD engines too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Sounds like a neat setup .......any photos ?? dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 37mm manifold entry size is fine if your inlet ports are that size, however even the VVC and VHPD port entries are only 35.2mm in size, all other K's are both smaller (33 or 34mm) and lower in the head (by 1.5mm). Thats why the Jenvey ones are cast to 33mm so that they can conform to all of possible port entry sizes that are applicable on the K. To make them fit a particular port size, only the body has to be modified. Fit the PTP ones to a stock 1.4/1.6/1.8 or indeed a VVC/VHPD head and its the port entry on the head you'll need to be modifying whether you like it or not rather than the bodies, not quite so convenient since you have to lift the head off to do it. Other than that I cant really see that there is a lot to choose between them. Basically a TB is a hole with a butterfly in it... Provided the componentry is of reasonable quality the differences will be negligible at best. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Oily, Other than that I cant really see that there is a lot to choose between them. Basically a TB is a hole with a butterfly in it... I have to disagree. Throttle linkage, water tapping, standard fuel rail, IACV. For a practised fettler these hold little fear, but in all these respects the PTP solution is superior to the Jenvey/QED/Lumenition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Peter, Dont disagree with the installation issues although these are largely addressed if you buy the airbox kit which brings the prices near to equal. The water tapping is only if you consider it to be necessary, many dont. Jenvey and QED do themselves a disservice by not thinking the installation issues through properly, they don't give much advice to the prospective purchaser as to which bits to buy and how to fit them. If you decide to go with the bits supplied from QED then you line yourself up with some serious grief. That's why Bernard has produced the airbox kit in the way that he has because it provides a complete solution whether you are experienced or not. My comment about little difference was in their functionality.. perhaps I should have made it clearer. However you are still faced with fettling your inlet ports. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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