Mixing engine oil

[Tim_H]

The Comma stuff. - 15/40 IIRC.

 

Edited - Sorry, Cosworth Sierra, - I was using 5/50 Synthetic. (the recommended Ford Oil)

 

Edited by - Tim_H on 7 Apr 2005 10:52:35

[Phil]

Tim_H, Cosworth, cool , stick with the oil you have.

 

A fully synthetic engine oil, in this case imagine it is a 15w/40 the same viscosity readings as the mineral base suggested my CC.

 

The advantages of the Fully Synthetic over the mineral are that FS has increased

 

BREAKDOWN RESISTANCE: Increased thermal and oxidation stability.

 

WEAR PROTECTION: Improves oil film strength and breakdown resistance.

 

DEPOSIT CONTROL: Reduces formulation of sludge and varnish deposits.

 

VOLATILITY: Lowers oil vaporisation and consumption in extreme conditions.

 

COLD START PROPERTIES: Can be made to Flow easily at low tempretures.

 

In short the oil performs better for longer, reduces heat, lowers friction for more power and better fuel economy, giving good protection through to the end of your chosen service interval over a mineral based oil. Semi synthetic is a cost effective compromise between the two.If you can afford fully, buy it.

 

Take a x/flow from the 1970s, this engine was made to requirements and technology of the time with different style gaskets and rubber oil seals, the engine relied upon a seal made from some of the burnt oil, by changing over to a modern oil in this engine you clean out these deposits because of the better detergents package in the modern oil and this may lead to leaks around the seals. In those days a high mileage was considered to be 80 to 100 thousand miles with engines reving quite low, max 5,000.

 

A modern version of the x/flow is made with stronger materials and better gaskets and oil seals, these like to be kept clean in the first place and DO NOT need burnt oil to help them seal, in fact the opposite applies. With better engineering, quality

parts and seals and a much higher rev limit this engine now demands an oil that will do all the above [breakdown resistance, deposit control,wear protection, etc].

 

Pressure, imagine a pint of water and a straw, suck the water through the straw, easy. Now try a thick milk shake, hard work, a lot more effort needed, warm up the milk shake, is it easier to drink. The shake is the cheap oil waiting to protect your engine while your engine warms up loosing valuable protection in the meantime. Along comes a scientist and makes a man made shake, it tastes like the original but is a lot easier to drink, Fully synthetic. Apply this to your car and you will see the bennifits of a lower viscosity oil for better start up protection and ease of starting giving less strain to the battery and the starter and better top end protection when cold.

A good grade for the x/flow I believe is a 10w/40 Fully synthetic which is hard to find. At present I am running a 5w/40 fully synthetic.

Last but no least, the first grade on the oil for example, 10w is the viscosity reading taken at -20degC, this is often taken the wrong way by the customer assuming it does not get that cold in this country and goes for a thicker oil, this confusion is exaggerated by the silly scale in the customers hand book for the car. Another common misconseption is when a customer picks up the oil [ 0w/40] shakes it and says that is like water it will not protect my engine and it will leak all over the place. A thick cheap oil leaves deposites and creates pressure and leads to leaks as a result over time. Another daft responce is that the cheap oil will do as it is changed every 3,000 miles, oil burns at around 92degC and engines run at 100degC plus so the better the oil the better the resistance to being burnt as soon as the engine is at running temp.

 

Tim_H, I Think there are loads of bennifits to you using a fully synthetic and you should have no problems changing grade [mineral to fully] as I said try OILMAN who advertises in the back of LOW FLYING as he supplies a 10w/40 true fully synthetic oil and the filters I believe, if you need oil from a local supplier try a fully synthetic 5w/40 like comma.

 

 

X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990

ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR

 

 

 

Edited by - phil on 7 Apr 2005 12:31:48

 

Edited by - phil on 7 Apr 2005 12:33:16

[TorAtle]

If there are ways to measure the quality of oil (and there are), how come there are no tougher quality standards than ACEA A3/B3? I read through the document posted earlier in this thread and noticed that there are now A4/B4, but it didn't appear to be for normal petrol engines

 

The point I'm trying to make is that even the cheapest "synthetic" oil these days is A3/B3 certified. If ACEA has an interest in forcing engine oil companies to meet a minimum quality level then why not upgrade the tests every now and then. Compare to emission laws for instance.

 

As it stands now I can accept (or not) to pay as much as 4 times the price for the correct brand. Both meet the same quality standard. Both are "synthetic". Come next winter my Caterham will have maybe 4000 more miles on the odo. I think it's hard to justify the extra cost.

[Sheds Moderator]

Ozzy, if your 'old' oil is only 3000 miles old I really do think that worrying about 0.5L of it mixed with 5L new is a waste of time. CC would have used a decent oil after all. At worst you can consider that the 'average' age of the oil is around 300 miles. Change intervals are not precise to 300 miles. In any case after a couple of hundred miles of motoring it won't matter. Go for a blat.

[Phil]

batteredoldsupersport

z z z z z z z .....

CC would use the correct oil? We have just discussed the fact that they suggest a bog standard 15w/40 mineral oil for a x/flow which I believe is not best by far for the job of protecting a standard or performance engine of this design.

 

What the main car manufactures all have in common is that they do not make oil, they simply have an oil company supply them in there own packaging, Caterham being only a small company should train there staff on lubrication and be one step ahead of the game, supplying the correct oil will only boost there sales and customer confidence and related sales.

 

Ozzy was in doubt to what he should do, for the cost of the oil and piece of mind why not change it and sleep at night.

 

One to think about, combustion produces acid, sulpher mixed with water, this helps to eat away at your engine, corroding away while it is left to sit for long periods of time, the better the oil the better the addatives to combat this, another good reason to buy a better oil.

 

There has to be a line drawn and less flapping about, choose the grade you want, choose the spec you want SJ or SL will do, A3 or B3 and go to your local store and buy it. The best way to sell oil to a customer is ask about his car choose the oil for him/her and change the subject, to much info and it all goes wrong, sorry if I have been over the top, thanks for listening.

 

X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990

ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR

 

 

[fordy]

acea have just revised the specs... last release was nov 2004.

 

The top spec is actually A5/B5, these would be fully syn 'top tier- long drain' products.

 

The way ACEA works (for oil specs anyway, ACEA is about more than oil specs) is for oil experts from the major european car manufacturers to together (and in consultation with the oil and additive industries) decide what the latest lines of engines and technologies need in terms of oil performance and to tweak the specs accordingly. We don't upgrade for the sake of it though and have to keep in mind all the millions of legacy vehicles out there. The process takes a couple of years as there are always obsolete tests to replace, reality checks to be made with the oils and adds, performance, environmental considerations to be made. In the end the specs bring a range of tiered 'minimum' performance levels that all the OEMs can buy into.

 

And the OEMs really do push the oil industry to impove oil quality. We push them real hard.....

 

To answer the original question, c3000 mile old oil will be virtually fresh (if it was good quality in the first place) and is highly unlikely to cause any problems when mixed with an alternative brand. Oil co's test their formulations for compatability when mixed with competitor oils before they go on sale.....

 

@Tim-H .... 10W-40 ACEA A3/B3 will be most suitable. Of course I can vouch for the stuff in a motorcraft can (10W-40 XR+)

 

for interest. Rover factory fill with a 'fuel economy' 5W-30 oil. As do most OEMs nowadays.

[fordy]

@phil... OEMs do get heavily involved in oil R&D, its an integral component in the engine, its part of the total performance package in a modern engine.

 

Also remember that the big OEMs do a phenomenal amount of testing on oil. Every single development mile or hour is effectively an oil test. When a new engine is released to the public the durabilty testing will have run into 100s of 1000s of dyno hours and millions of road miles.

 

On one new oil specification development alone in the last 2 years I've run about 6 million vehicle kilometers. Just dedicated to testing the oil.

 

As long as you read your owner guide, put in the recommended vis grade and spec and get the car serviced according to the maintenance schedule you can be pretty confident that your engine will last to its design life.....

 

You might even prefer to use the own branded stuff because its highly likely to be the very stuff they did all the development on.....

 

Second guessing it can leave you totally on your own.

 

And although Caterham do not have the same level of budget, they have developed an oil with Comma and they have durability tested it (so I was told by Andy Noble) and they will stand by it. It was a bold attempt by CC to respond to customer demand to develop something specific, especially as they'll never make much money from it (oil development is very costly).

 

My only qualm with CC is that they do not give you an alternative spec to look for which is apparently a somewhat anti-competetive practice.

 

If everyone new what vis grade and spec was required, recognising CC recommended their own branded product, we simply would not need endless boring oil threads......

 

 

[Mick Day]

Ye Gods: & all Ozzy asked was would a little old oil mix with new oil ❗

 

Another question: what about friction reducing additives such as this: here. Are they of any benefit or is the additive package in modern oils adequate on their own 🤔

[Ozzy]

I'm beginning to wish I'd never asked in the first place. I'll probably get a reputation for starting boring threads, and nobody will even look at my next post asking for help!!! 😬

 

Oz. (aka really boring bloke) 😳

 

Still Shaking.

 

6 speed 1600k Supersport

(keep forgetting to tell people what it is!)

[Tim_H]

IMO, oil out of a 7 that has done 3000 miles will be pretty much 'shot'.

 

After all. of the few track days i've done, the accepted recommendation is to change the oil either before or afterwards.

 

It's unreasonable to compare the same mileage gaps between oil changes in a 7 to a road car.

 

After all, when you take your 7 out, it may only do 3000 miles in 2 years!., but (esp in my case), those 3000 miles will be very hard, full throttle, high revving miles!.

 

I personally try to change my oil at least every 6 months, irrespective of mileage. (and it's got the consistency of black water when it comes out).

 

I remember a quote from an old mechanic friend of mine once, and he said, if you do nothing else to your engine, at least keep changing the oil.

[Myles]

what about friction reducing additives such as this: here. Are they of any benefit or is the additive package in modern oils adequate on their own

 

I think the consensus (if you'll ever get close to one when discussing oil in this forum) is that additives are not a bright idea - they may disrupt the additive packages already in the (carefully-formulated) oil.

 

Project Scope-Creep is underway...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[Sheds Moderator]

*sigh*

Phil, CC use a Comma based oil, it's either synth or semi synth and the spec is more than up to the job. What they recommend for a XF is irrelevant here.

 

Ozzy, you will by now have learned that oil is to many 7ers a religious subject. I shall leave this thread alone now, my final advice would be to listen to Fordy as he's an oil chemist or similar. A read through will no doubt allow you to distinguish the contributions based on science from the rest.

 

[Phil]

It is such a shame after all the time and money has been spent in conjunction with Caterham and other car manufactures that it is left to the uneducated sales assistant [not trained on oil] to choose the oil for you. The point again that every one is missing is that 99% of us may not be chemical engineers but would like the best oil for our cars. CC have spent a lot of money, time and effort with Comma to get a grade for there new engines but what about the x/flow, I refer to the advice given for this engine "15w/40 mineral base". Is this good enough for the demands of the owners and there driving abilities track or otherwise?

Would it not be nice if CC had an oil expert on hand to recieve your phone call and advise you on oil for your car and requirements, no they havent and this is why this subject keeps appearing time and time again.

Agreed that I am in no way an expert with no qualification on the subject but have taken a strong interest over the last 16 years. I have learnt a lot about the common misconceptions the customers have and how happy you are to pass on these ideas to others.

 

 

X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990

ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR

 

 

 

Edited by - phil on 8 Apr 2005 10:26:00

[Ozzy]

In reply to Tim. As I said earlier, the oil had done 3500 miles when I changed it. Right up until the change, I could'nt read the level on the dipstick. I had to lay a paper towel against it to see the oil. When I drained it, it looked like new. If yours is coming out like black water, maybe you're using the wrong oil!!, or theres a problem with your engine. If mine had come out looking like that, I really would have been worried!

 

Still Shaking.

 

6 speed 1600k Supersport

(keep forgetting to tell people what it is!)

[Tim_H]

*arrowup*Ozzy, i'd say your old was in good nick then.

 

goes black and thin when it loses it's effectiveness as a lubricant.

[Myles]

CC have spent a lot of money, time and effort with Comma

 

I sincerely doubt it. I suspect they got something more-or-less off the shelf from Comma.

 

 

 

 

Project Scope-Creep is underway...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[oilman]

Hmm, Interesting thread, been away and just had time to read it.

 

If there's anything I can help with, please feel free to ask - I'll do my best amongst all the oil experts here now. Some have been paying attention then ;)

 

Cheers

Simon

[TorAtle]

Last time around discussing oil there was some talk about the availability of VI improvers(?) that were almost impossible to get hold of in the states (at any price). No brands were mentioned.

 

Up here in Norway Mobil 1 is available at a very resonable price from some sources. I've up until now suspected that this has been a parallell import from the states. The text on the can is in our scandinavian languages, but it's a sticker - you can peel it off and the text on the original label is in english.

 

Is it me being paranoid? Is "american" Mobil 1 hydrocracked stuff or proper ester based? The oil in question is "rally formula" 5W50 and is priced at the equivalent of 28ukp for 4 litres...ie very cheap.

 

[oilman]

I'm not sure about the grade you quote as there's no UK availability, we're a Mobil stockist and can't get 5w-50.

 

The M1 0w-40 and 15w-50 are synthetic (PAO not Ester) and I would hazard a guess that M1 5w-50 will be the same basestock. Mobil always use POA (Group 4) and not Group III hydrocracked and therefore are a cut above you average "synthetic" labelled oil.

 

Cheers

Simon

[TorAtle]

Thanks Simon. So I might be correct in thinking that it's not an euro-spec oil then, but OTOH it should still be PAO (or a PAO/ester blend).

 

I always get a little suspicious when some sources can supply the (seemingly ) same product for nearly half RRP...especially when the mentioned store sell everything from computers to garden power tools to oil.

[oilman]

I'm only guessing that it's PAO, it's certainly not ester as Mobil use 100% PAO.

 

It does seem a cheap product and I wouldn't rule out that it's a Group III and Group IV blend but once again to be totally honest, I don't know.

 

Sorry I can't help more, a data sheet might enlighten me more but I've never seen one.

 

Cheers

Simon

[Alias]

My two-penneth worth.

 

a) I suggest it DOES matter what grade of oil was in the car previously. I once topped up my oil with 15w50 having previously had 5w40. The hydraulic tappets weren't at all happy. I would therefore recommend that for the sake of £25 you change your oil and ensure your valve gear isn't put at risk.

 

b) 15w50 is a great oil for motorsport use. However, whilst it will give good pressure, it will exert additional strain on the engine. Therefore, it's not great if you are using your car mostly for road use. With a lack of oil in the valvegear for the first few seconds of engine startup, you want a thinner oil i.e. 5w. I would recommend a 5w40 for road use with a bit of track use.

 

c) In my experience, oil wears according to the use / temperature it has endured. If you put your car on track and keep it at 7000 rpm & 110 degrees cent all day it will need changing more often than if you take it for leisurely drives around the country. Some people feel happiest changing their oil every 6 months, others after 3000 miles. IMHO so long as you keep a good eye on the dipstick to ensure the oil is good, you can change the oil on an annual basis.

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

1400 Supersport with 6 gears and clamshell wings

[oilman]

Very well put and technically correct.

 

I would only add that temps are important and a good proper 5w-40 is in fact more viscous at 110 degC than a 15w-50 is at 140 degC so this should be taken into account.

 

Here are some figures:

 

Viscosity..................Pro-S 5W/40................Typ. 15W/50

 

Visc. at 100C................14.9.............................18.2

 

Visc at 110C...............12.06............................14.53

 

Visc. at 140C............... 7.09.............................8.25

 

So, at an ‘oil-cooler’ temp of 110C, the 5W/40 is still thicker than the 15W/50 at 140C.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Edited by - oilman on 21 Apr 2005 10:56:57

[Tight fart]

Any views on running an engine with a tin of ATF in for cleaning?

I have read a few other threads recomending it but it does sound dodgy to me.

 

T.F@O.F.

A7 RDP

Pics here

[oilman]

Yes, don't do it, just use a decent synthetic engine oil!

 

Cheers

Simon