K series modular upgrade path

[Shaun_E]

I was going to post this on the 1.9 thread but thought it made more sense standalone. I want to upgrade my 1.6SS but don't think I can really stretch to a 240bhp monster right now, nor do I think going from 135bhp to 240 in one jump is necessarily a sensible thing to do 😬. I have a few questions and am after some sensible views on what path to take. I don't want to do any of the work myself as I've just rebuilt my car from chassis up, am thoroughly sick of working on it and just want to drive the damm thing (hopefully in the next week or so).

 

1) Just in case I suddenly find a few grand down the back of the sofa, what is the real cost of building a such an engine from scratch? Lets assume I buy a bog standard s/h engine as a starting point. If I handed that engine to oilyhands and asked him to build me a reliable 240bhp 1.9, how much money would I have to hand over with it? [Oily - I appreciate you may not want to give details on here but I am just after a realistic ball park figure] It seems there are a lot of vague numbers on other threads - is that because people are in denial or just don't want their other halves to find out?

 

2) What sensible stages should I take to get there assuming I can't afford to do it all in one go? My starting point is a 1.6 Supersport. I had thought about going for the K05 kit which with the fitting and verniers comes to £3120. This would give me a 175ish bhp car and the basics for further tuning (DTHTBs and emerald). Am I right in assuming this is done with the engine in the car? How long does it take to do? Should I have the car mapped on a rolling road afterwards?

 

3) Even £3120 is a quite a lot to shell out in one go (especially after my rebuild budget creep ) so, out of the other SS upgrade packages, what would be the best to go for as an intermediate step with the intention to get to K05 at a later date? K15 (headwork for 145bhp+) or K16 (DTHTBs and Emerald for 150bhp+)?

 

I know I can pick up the phone but this is just food for thought at the moment as my car hasn't turned a wheel in 6 months ☹️ and needs to be ready for Cadwell next month.

 

Finally, are there any other modifications to the car required for big power? The car is a 1997 Superlight with AP Suretrak LSD and all the other SL goodies. I guess I will need wider rear tyres (currently on 185's). ***I already have a dry sump - thanks for the reminder Neil***

 

Look forward to hearing people's views. Please email me through my profile if you don't want to post details here.

 

Thanks,

Shaun

 

Yellow SL #32

 

Edited by - Shaun_E on 1 Apr 2005 14:19:39

[neil.cavanagh]

I'll be watching this one with interest. I have a 1.8 140bhp bogo SV and feel the need for more power at the end of this summer.

 

I think that once your bhp is pushing the 190-200 mark a dry sump system is very desirable (or essential) to ensure reliability on a track.

 

I'm wondering if it actualyl works out cheaper in the long run to ditch the K in its entirety and go for a duratec to get the 200+ reliable horses.

[Jason Plato]

*All* new uprated parts inc block and head, all steel 1900 engine is about £8200 inc vat in parts alone , this includes all ancillaries but not rolling road @ £250 or dry sump or exhaust as applicable . I expect others to say, it can be done cheaper using std and used parts . But this was the ballpark figures I compiled for my spec .

 

Labour for someone to put it all together again depends on how far from std parts you go and hence how much needs measuring , checking , dummy build and ballance etc etc .....

 

I would suggest your 6 speed gearbox is upgraded to swiss spec by Road and Race @ £400 ish .

 

Other wise everything else is OK .

 

You may consider wider tyres 😬

 

before anyone says ...... the parts prices are all very similar to a Duratec , it just depends how far you wish to go with new parts ,upgraded or steel components .

 

 

C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬

South Wales AO

 

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 1 Apr 2005 14:48:57

[V7 SLR]

I agree with Dave but you'd be better off compiling a purchase sheet. We don't know what components you've already got and whether you want to go "extreme" or not.

 

Doing it in stages will cost you much more. I can give you a copy of my spreadsheets from the past few years' spend if you're interested. I did a lot of my upgrades in stages and probably spent in excess of 12K.

 

BTW the costings JJ posted on the 1.9 thread are about right for the components he indicated.

[elise_s1]

IMHO the problem is on the way to get to a 240 bhp 1.9 you aren't going to save much of your present engine...

Also most of *first step* modifications are not going to be forwarded.

Personally I would go for the K16 (DTHTB and Emerald) first, as it is the only kit that fits both engines (no waste there).

Accessories (as proper sump baffle /dry sump, oil cooler, etc. ) to be added when money allow.

Then I would build a second engine from scratch with EVO2 block, forged pistons and DVAed MS2 or Vulcan head and do the swap. This way you'll end up with 2 full engines, keeping the standard one as spare (to refit eventually if selling the car), or selling it on.

Worth mentioning, during this build, you can still enjoy the car.

 

As stated above, all IMHO.

 

Cheers

Carlo

 

Edited by - elise_s1 on 1 Apr 2005 15:15:59

[V7 SLR]

Yes, that's very wise advice. Start with another engine. You're going to need a better head than the K16 head anyway so you may as well buy a 2nd hand short block. And you'll want to replace:

 

flywheel

clutch

bottom end bearings

complete gasket set

head

cams

cam pulleys

water pump (to be safe)

Oil pump rotor (steel one allows safe high revs)

cam belt

valves (larger)

guides (Colsibro tapered)

throttle bodies, trumpets, filter/airbox

 

I'm sure there's more. Basically you're looking at most of a new engine anyway so why not either go for an intermediate DVA upgrade to your current engine, an upgrade that doesn't "waste" much of the current engine and require much time off the road, then buy and build a monster away from the car. You'd be doing exactly the opposite to what I did, but then you won't need 7 months off the road while you do it either.

[Myles]

It seems there are a lot of vague numbers on other threads - is that because people are in denial or just don't want their other halves to find out?

 

Both, I suspect.

 

I stopped counting and only have a vague figure for PSC. OK, I'll go and work it out... ☹️

 

Project Scope-Creep is underway...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[Shaun_E]

OK so K16 upgrade plus verniers now (or at least once car back on road) then build new engine from scratch. Will then be able to resuse throttle bodies, verniers, Emerald and dry sump kit.

Some more questions:

 

1. Dave - does your £8200 include throttle bodies, verniers and ECU? And which ECU did you go for?

 

2. Is it worth starting with a second hand engine or is the cost saving over new parts negligable? It seems that only the block will be reused so may as well just buy a new block.

 

3. I already have a lightweight flywheel and a brand new AP clutch I assume these will not then need replacing.

 

4. Am I going to need an airbox to keep noise down for trackdays? Is the Bernard Scouse one good enough or will it be restrictive?

 

5. Currently have a 4-1 exhaust (headers come outside the egnine bay) - is this likley to become a restiction at the higher power levels?

 

Thanks,

Shaun

 

Yellow SL #32

[Myles]

I think DJ is still using the Scouse box...

 

The clutch and flywheel will be reusable...

 

My 183bhp/144lbft PSC engine has cost me roughly £4k - plus another £400+ of unnecessary expenditure relating to either the aborted attempt to fit a plenum in place of dth tbs and/or the rebuild costs. I can recover perhaps half of that by selling unneeded bits.

 

😳

 

Project Scope-Creep is underway...

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

---

[Racingshoe]

Grab a s/h block from a scrappy and get Scholar to work on that.

Use the Emerald ECU as that's what everyone else uses, so helps with running-in maps & advice.

Dave Jackson uses a Bernard Scouse airbox on his 1900k, and the results are v.impressive. I'm running an ITG filter out of the side of the bonnet, but will probably utilise an airbox for trackdays later on in the year.

 

I reckon i've spent about 6k on my engine, but that was using VHPD cranks & rods, 285H cams giving a milder spec, but still aiming for 215-220bhp. Should be a fantastic road engine 😬

 

Rik Robarts - bl**dy bright orange 1.4k SS here

[Jason Plato]

. Dave - does your £8200 include throttle bodies, verniers and ECU? And which ECU did you go for?

it doesinc tb's verniers but not ecu/

2. Is it worth starting with a second hand engine or is the cost saving over new parts negligable? It seems that only the block will be reused so may as well just buy a new block.

depends how many new parts you want to use . I woudnt bother - You can buy complete assembled 1900 bottom ends from Scholar or Hellier or DVA or PTP in all steel spec or std crank

3. I already have a lightweight flywheel and a brand new AP clutch I assume these will not then need replacing.

No they will be fine

4. Am I going to need an airbox to keep noise down for trackdays? Is the Bernard Scouse one good enough or will it be restrictive?

I use a modified scouse box , it has the feed opended up to 100mm, you can also buy airboxes for good money from playskool, a decent air box wont rob you of power - I feel this was demonstrated on my engine

5. Currently have a 4-1 exhaust (headers come outside the egnine bay) - is this likley to become a restiction at the higher power levels?

possibly not the optimal but proven to be good for 245 bhp !

 

hope this helps

 

Dave

 

 

C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬

South Wales AO

[Shaun_E]

Thanks Dave (and everyone else) lots of sensible advice and I think I can now get a rough idea of what I need to spend.

V7 - YHM

I will start with the K16 upgrade plus verniers to give me the throttle bodies, verniers and Emerald and then start saving for the new engine.

 

Yellow SL #32

[PooPoo]

Check on ebay. Someone is selling a 195bhp K-series for £3,400. About the same money but more power.

 

Currently R247.....awaiting upgrades! My Viper Blue 140 SV

[Shaun_E]

One more question.

I assume throttle bodies come in different sizes. Will the ones that DVA supplies for the 150bhp kit be big enough for 240bhp?

 

Yellow SL #32

[V7 SLR]

Jenvey K series direct to head TB's are 42mm ID. The PTP TB's are 45mm ID.

 

Whatever you go for will have to be port-matched to your head and to whatever head you swap to in the future.

[Steve-B]

Shaun, next year i'm taking our SV to 260bhp Duratec land. that means my 210bhp VHPD *could* be for sale, IF(big IF) V7 who has first dibs don't buy it.

that sale of my very well looked after engine is to follow Brent C's route in an SV..

 

could be cheaper for you if V7 don't have it first. i've started budgeting for the upgrade after USA2005 trip expenses are paid off.

 

Steve B

Big Black Beast^3 USA 2005: How the West Was Driven

[V7 SLR]

Steve, I'm still keen but I have decreasing amounts of kit to sell on eBay so it might not happen. However, next year is a long way away... 😬

[Steve-B]

yup, you've still got first dibs V7, and i'll offer second to Shaun

 

Steve B

Big Black Beast^3 USA 2005: How the West Was Driven

[Shaun_E]

Steve, If I haven't already gone mad and built a monster then that is a great option. Put me down second on the list.

 

Yellow SL #32

[fordy]

I've been looking at this myself (currently have the same 1.6 superlight engine) and have concluded that the most cost effective first spend for a c200bhp engine would be to source a second hand VHPD engine.

 

There are plenty about since lots of SLR/R400's swapping to duractec and exiges going for Hondas, and seem to go anywhere between £1500 and £2500. At those prices it does not seem worth upgrading the current engine.

 

If it didn't come with goodies like verniers, emerald, jenveys or rolly barrows (you'd replace the KV6 swan-neck types in time if thats what it came with) then there would be a bit more spend later (you'd get away with swan necks and a VHPD mems in the meantime).

 

As a second stage 240bhp 1.9 you have much of what you need from the VHPD (ie head) already. You can stick the 1.6SS back in while you work on the BIG engine in the meantime. After its all done the sale of the 1.6SS would recoup about £1000 of you spend I should think.

 

Rather than an interim 170bhpish (by just dropping the throddle boties and emerald etc.. on a 1.6SS) you get 200bhp (which personally I'd probably stick at as vg vfm).

 

I've also noticed bitsa K's (ie powerfulish non-VHPD engines) tend to be advertised at alot more money than a pukka VHPD. I guess because they owe there owners much more money....

[Johnty Lyons]

I started out with a 1.6ss in one go I bought an Emerald a set of Tbs [jenvys] there where No direct to head bodies in those days so I got a Scouse CNCd alloy inlet manifold DVA did me an ultimate 1.6K head with Paul Ivey REC valves modded hyd to solid followers of set dowels [insted of verniers] and a set cams I already had 4 to 1 comp exhaust this produced 180BHP. subsequently i went 1.8 with forged pistons and then arrow rods and Verniers, then dry sump. went to 198BHP now I've just bought an ultimate VHPD DVA head again REC valves double springs pukka solid followers 1444s and new verniers, and gone EVO2 1.9 with new pistons.

I decided to keep the 1.6/8 head complete with cams and verniers, I reckon it would be easier sold as a complete solution to somone who also could get my matched A liners and Omega Pistons.

Havn't posted yet on For sale not sure if anyone would bite DVA reckons its worth at least 1K as a packaage same kit new would according to him be nearer 2K Sort a sad to see it go as it has stood me well.