Youngbutnotslow Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 Oldbutnotslow took his very hastily into the garage! Matt - see my car here Son of Oldbutnotslow here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I think it is worth £148 of anyones money to protect an engine from the damage that can be caused from oil surge or digesting parts of the foam baffle. My understanding is that this baffle was developed from a baffle used in Rover rally cars and given that Hellier is effectively a one man operation Jason should be congratulated on the quaility of his products. If I did not already have dry sump on my K I would have fitted this baffle Mark D Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 How are people finding the new sump baffle thing? At Croix on the 2nd corner, long hard left hander which I took in 3rd at quite a high speed, I noticed a drop in pressure from 4 to 2 on my Caterham guage... Plus lots of petrol splilling out, but thats another issue 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 William's passenger reported 4 bar dropping to 3 bar. No Apollo - only the baffle. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Hellier baffle + Apollo, oil pressure rock steady at Anglesey. But then I'm slow, and lower cornering speeds with RE 720s. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Yeah, I didn't notice any problems at Anglesey with a similar set-up - but then I didn't find much time for the luxury of looking at the gauges through the corners... I *did* glance at the OP through School in one of the later sessions - and it was down to around 52psi - but, by the same token, the OT was up to 95ish, so it's a bit inconclusive. Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I found the "G-Force" type effects in that left hander at Croix at lot higher than the infamous Gerrards at Mallory Park which is a right hander. Is a drop in pressure from 4 to 2 on the CC guage something to be wary of? My oil tempreature was high... 100+ at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 A couple of things to bear in mind: 1) The gauge is quite well damped, so if you see it move then there has been a significant change in pressure for a significant amount of time. 2) A significant drop in pressure must mean that the pickup pipe is sucking air, which means your bearings are not being fed oil continuously. All this is bad bad bad. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I found the gauge quite responsive, turn in guage drops a little - hit the apex and come out of the corner the pressure went back up. Edited by - knowley on 29 Mar 2005 15:34:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 So what is the concensus then? I have lost the thread so-to-speak. Does the Hellier baffle do the job or are we kidding ourselves? Looking at the design I can see it will retain a small oil volume so should show some benefit for short term cornering. How much oil does it retain - can't be more than about 1 litre? What is the delivery rate of the oil pump? One divided by the other gives the hold up time before the pump really just sucks air. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I think people shouldn't see this as an alternative to a dry sump - but an improvement on the standard wet sump set-up. If the principle is used by circuit racing MG's and rally cars, and by cars such as M3's, then Iam happy to have it, and hope that it has some positive effect - ie better than nothing/foam. Must say I have never noticed such large movements of oil pressure guage needle as you mention Knowley - I'll have to go and look at some video clips at places like Spa with long fast sweeping bends and see if I ca spot anything, as well as Crois clips. Ours is fitted, took out the foam. Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 It certainly doesn't do any harm. The one I fitted to William's car - as mentioned above - seems to do the job. 3 bar corning at Croix is plenty I would have thought even if there is a bit of entrained air. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Its a shame I couldn't do that corner before fitting the sump baffle thing and then immediately after fitting. However JEB (almost identical car, without this baffle) says his oil pressure hardly moved around that corner and then it started raining, so 🙆🏻 Could too low or too high oil level have made things worse? We drained the sump, and refilled with about 6.5ltrs - oil level is up to normal on the dipstick when running/just turned off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Hi Knowley, By the way I've still got your E111 if you were looking for it. Will post back to you. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 ahhh yes, keep forgeting about that, thanks David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 ISTR oil capacity with apollo is about 7.5 litres Knowley - (may be slightly more without the foam, but probably marginal) Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Yeah, we didn't drain the appllo completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL FLY Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I think there are a couple of fundamental points being missed here (as was explained to me, so I can't claim they're my ideas). 1. The problem in K series engines fitted to Caterhams is that the oil is retained in the head during sustained cornering thus depriving the pick up of oil to suck up, if the oil is being retained in the head (partly due to the engine being canted over) then having a baffle or foam will not help the situation. With a dry sump the sump is a lot shallower and there is a channel running down the centre for the scavenge pump to suck oil from. here 2. The engine in an MG rally/track car is transverse and will have a lot deeper sump, so the pick up can sit lower and thus be in the oil constantly even if there is oil being held in the head (which hasn't been proven in transverse installations) I think there may have been some lack of knowledge of the true problem and some false assumptions made in the design of this baffle. There was also a fairly small amount of testing carried out before the product went to market, I wouldn't like to be one of the Beta testers for this product because I'm damn sure Hellier aren't giving any warranty or guarantee with this product when they sell it. It would be interesteing to see the outcome if an engine were to run the bearings dry whilst using one of the baffles with an Apollo tank. I'm not trying to slag off the product, I'd just like to see some proper test data published using back to back comparisons with/without the baffle, same track same day same spec cars. I don't think that the testing that has been done has been scientific enough. I think Hellier should perform proper product testing using a proper datalogger with before and after figures from the same circuit showing g force speed and other parameters. Roy. See willfly.net for more info. If you don't spin you ain't trying Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Point 1 makes sense and its a shame thats not been explained properly before (sorry if I've missed it previously). Either way, its still better than perishable foam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Fair enough Roy - personally I am happy to trust Jason's 15 years of engine building and knowledge. My 'lack of knowledge' is far greater than his, I guess. Having scraped bits of our (admittedly old) foam baffle out of our oil pick-up pipe last time we changed, I was going to remove the foam anyway, and I am happy to pop the Hellier baffle in whilst I am at it (incidently, if one wishes, you can use the baffle with the foam still in place) as IMO it can only be a positive addition to our apollo. It is entirely ones choice to fit or not, of course. Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL FLY Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Angus I'm not trying to tell people whether to fit them or not, I'm just asking for some proof that it does what its designed to do. I don't doubt Helliers experience in their field, but arent' they fairly new to the caterham installation of the K which introduces a number of problems which would not be experienced in the MG installation. I'm quite happy to discuss this with Jason if he wants as I'm as keen as the rest of you to find a cost effective alternative to a dry sump. Roy. See willfly.net for more info. If you don't spin you ain't trying Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Not realy in defence , but in answer to the points raised as I did the testing and prompted development in the first place when no other company were making anything or developing anything to help those Caterham owners with wet sumps . And lets face facts - no business is going to make any significant cash on the back of say 30 baffle plates for goodness sakes - its such a small specialist market that parts are simply not developed as the labour involved - I know more more than 45 hours from Hellier plus you could include my time of 8 hours - - wipes out any commercial reasoning fro making things like this ...... Yes the dry sump pan does have a channel down the center for the scavenge and it is a little shallower - but not by much . What should be remembered is that the oil that *is* retained in the head - a quantity that nobody has fully determined, will only be to a maximum determined by the position of the drain holes in the head, this volume will be the same retained if it is a dry sump (unless anyone has determined the quantity drawn by the pump through the atmosphere?) , wet sump with or without sponge or wet sump with baffle . With the wet sump and appolo , 7.5L of oil is maintained in the total system , the baffle was to reduce movement of the oil within the actual sump pan around the pickup pipe - this is the same oil *volume* that moves around without the baffle nothing has changed in that respect . The volume that is retained within the head is also the same volume with or without the baffle . The baffle simply reduces movement of the oil . Yes an MG saloon car has a much deeper sumpan , this is completely different circumstances - transverse , more oil volume but the principle of the baffle design is carried over - one way trap doors etc . I suspect with Jason at Helliers many years of experience with F1, BTCC and Group A rally plus development of the original VHPD K series engines he would have a fair understanding of the movement of oil and the K series engine . I dont see how it can be fair to say that there was "some lack of understanding of the true problem" and "some false assumptions made" when you dont identify what your source believes the "true problem" or what the "false asumptions" were ( although I'm sure your scource is complying a response - but I am not getting into a major discussion on this one) I have a day job apparently ! Are you suggesting that the true problem is that all the oil is retained in the head ? - how does this differ on a wet sump without the baffle ? . The baffle simple reduces the movement of oil within the sumpan (please note the smile)the oil retained in the head will be the same quantity , the oil retained in the sumpan will also be the same quantity , but its movement in the sump will be reduced by virtue of the baffle . The testing that was done was documented here, datalogging would have recorded what I saw - no change in oil pressure ( significant drop in pressure without baffle) , back to back test , same car , same conditions same section of tarmac , same speed , same oil level , same evening , I dont know what the G forces were but traction was being lost at 55 mph on all 4 wheels on 32R's and good suspension setup . The baffle was also tested at Llandow and no alteration in oil pressure was seen around the long Gluepot corner ( 4th gear , at 85mph) .- I hoped you would have believed me and my own eyes.I apologise if it was "scientific enough" The baffle it self will undoubtably have its limitations, and if the corner described is a higher G force than Mallory , then that realy is some bloody corner ! . It should be remebered that this is not a subsitute for a £1700 dry sump system, it is designed to reduce or eliminate the effects of surge in the majority of circumstances where surge would occur with a std wet sump system . It will have its limitations , but those limitations will undoubtably be reached far sooner without the baffle . But those limitations were never said or implied to be similar to a full dry sump system . I hope this helps , but please note I have no intention od getting into a bun fight on this . I prompted original development when nothing else was being done , I accept constructive feedback but please lets keep it reasonable and sensible ? Dave C7 TOP Powered by Hellier Performance 😬 South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 On the strength of observations in my son's car with the baffle but NO Apollo I intend to get one as well. My car has an Apollo. I think your test was good enough for me Dave. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILL FLY Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Dave I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just want to know the product works before buying one. Two people on this thread have reported drops in oil pressure while using the baffle. This was displayed on a damped gauge. The reason I asked about datalogging is that the pressure logged by the data logger will have a far faster response time than a gauge. If people are seeing dips in gauge readings these should show as sustained drops in pressure on a data logger. Roy. See willfly.net for more info. If you don't spin you ain't trying Happiness is knowing you have just a tad too much power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 if the corner described is a higher G force than Mallory , then that realy is some bloody corner I said that purely from my experiance of body movement in each corner... It bends in the opposite direction, and is no where near as fast, but is a lot tighter! Due to the speed of Mallory I probably don't enter it as fast as I could, personally I need more confidence in my skills to drive that one at full chat compared to a slower tighter corner. I was posting my findings after Croix, because whilst we are sort of Guinea Pigs open discussion about it is good Edited by - knowley on 29 Mar 2005 15:44:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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