Myles Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 It's a long-story that I won't go into just now, but the short version is that we pulled apart Project Scope-Creep today at DVA-towers to investigate what appeared to be a coolant-loss problem with the new engine during running-in. The pistons/liners had to come-out so that we could reseal the liners and rule that out of the equation. I'd noticed (and been rather amazed) - when stripping the engine from the car - that the sump foam (new at engine-build - 400 miles old) had DISSOLVED COMPLETELY - there was no trace of it... ...other than a relatively-small amount of evil-sludge in the oil-pickup and a couple of tiny remnants around the ali-baffle-plate bolts. A combination of adulterated oil (you can see the foam has turned into a liquid in the oil residue) and blocking of the oil-pickup resulted in the big-end bearings being toasted - I'm lucky that is the main extent of the damage - could have been much-worse. Still that's a couple of hundred quid in repair-bills - let alone the generously-donated time etc. from various people. So why did it happen. In 400 miles of running-in (never taken over 4krpm - no overheating or other issues)? Well, I was using cheap mineral-oil for running-in - and it's still possible that some of the coolant was getting into the oil - maybe the combination is particularly nasty. Dunno. What I'm sure about is that the foam isn't going back in to my sump. I'll either buy the relatively-unproven Hellier baffle-solution, or try something of my own. Hmmph. Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongomania Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Myles - I assume you run a k-series? Does anyone know if the new duratec CSRs have foam baffles? Is there a similar problem with new cars? I guess jackal will know? Seven-Ecstasy.co.uk Fully revised and updated for 2005 including more Le Mans and Goodwood pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Sounds like you were unlucky with some chemical mix Myles! Pictures on my site of when we replaced our 'foam' a while back - it came out like crispy Chinese seaweed - horrible stuff. Although I did put some new stuff in, I will be removing it very soon, when I fit one of the Hellier sump baffles as well. They can only be a positive thing. I was up at Hellier this week discussing various upgrade options, and saw the baffles being produced - what I had not realised from previous shots was that the baffle has rubber one way valves/flaps. The same design has been used successfully in the MG race cars for a few years now I believe. Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowley Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 hmmm I found a "small amount of evil-sludge in the oil-pickup" yesterday - was a creamy pale brown colour... am beginning to worry now 🙆🏻 7 only day @ Mallory - 06/08/05 R300 Register My R300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Had my sump off yesterday to fit a Pace Dry Sump, the car had done 3000 miles since the last service, and the foam was perfect Just like to say how pleased I have been with the customer support and service from Neil at Pace - Top Bloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Sorry to hear that Myles but at least you know now. I cant believe that even mixing coolant and oil would desolve the foam in that way. Clearly something has though. What make was the mineral oil? Dave has my engine at the moment and I will have to run the engine in and I want to avoid what ever it was you used! Ive bitten the bullet and ordered the Hellier baffle on the basis that its only going to improve matters. Jason said it mattered little if the seaweed was there or not. I dont think I will be putting it back in as much on the basis that if its not there I will never have to replace it. Ergo no messing removing the sump. Regards Grant Black and stone chip and currently not going but getting better ☹️ here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanB Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Whilst assisting DVA in a rebuild/upgrade last November, he advised not to bother with the foam as the risk was just too high.... I've run the car in with the retaining plate fitted but no foam. I too have a Hellier baffle plate on order. Angus, I see that the " new job = spend on upgrades" equation applies to you too? 😬 I'd be interested in your views on Hellier. I've browsed their web site and some interesting stuff there. Cheers, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alicat Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 I think you will find the new CSR's are all dry sump Alicat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted March 12, 2005 Author Share Posted March 12, 2005 Casbar - I ran my std. 1.6 on Halfrauds Synthetic with foam baffles for something like 18k over the last two-years - never had a problem. At-worst, I've seen a couple of tiny broken 'branches' kicking around either the sump or the pickp - absolutely nothing to worry about... ...and then the whole-lot disappears in less mileage than I'd put on the old car in some weekends... For the record, the oil I was initially using was Carlube 'Gold' 10W40 mineral from Motorworld. After 50ish miles of running in, I changed the oil (sump-off) and whipped the head off (due to the first - possibly misleading - signs of coolant consumption). For the next 150ish miles I ran the same stuff - and then did a std. oil-change prior to the trip to Emerald (150 miles) - on this occasion, I'd run out of the Carlube and used a mix of Halfrauds Enhanced Mineral 10W40 (orange bottle) and some Carlube I had left. The coolant (if this is/was getting into the oil) was Rover-recommended Havoline/Rover Ethylene Glycol (yak!) pink stuff - reputed not to be good for bearings - but I do know that it doesn't attack the foam on its own (experimental fact). Whatever the cause - it's an engine killer - and no-one seems to be able to argue conclusively why the foam should be there in the first-place. Sorry - let me redefine that: No-one seems to be able to demonstrate that the foam has any beneficial effect, whatever its intended purpose (and that *is* open to debate). I can't afford a dry-sump, so I think I'll join the Hellier-queue. I'd be (relatively) happy to try my own solutions - but haven't the time now that I'm busy again. Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Faulds Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Whenever we've seen foam disintegrate badly, it's always been accompanied by coolant in the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Alan - 😬 Unfortunately, no money for upgrades for quite a while - job doesn't start until April for a start! Somebody very kindly recommended me to Jason as someone who could work on his logo and design/run/construct his website (which is about to get a big upgrade of itself by the way!) Jason very kindly agreed to pay me in services and parts - he did offer normal dosh, but I have learnt over the last few months/years that bartering and an exchange of skills works very well, and after chatting with him and seeing what he did I thought it would be a worthwhile trade of skills! Very impressed with Jason and what he does - very genuine guy with a shed load of experience - sort of experience that gets one flown out to Greece to run and engineer a fleet of rally MGZR's for a week, which is good enough for me to trust him with our engine and car. His advice has been very good so far - always re-assuring when people advice you not to spend your money! (I shall be starting another thread about what my upgrade plans for the future are - 'power on a budget'!!) I went to visit his premises during the week. Like many other specialists he is located in a small business unit on a farm (very like Road and Race) and these little places are often alladins caves of engineering! Lots of very nice machinary, Bridgeport milling machines, a parts shelf to die for, etc etc and quite a few little projects dotted around - including a beautifully simple straight 6 engine block which he has just re-lined from a Bristol car. I shall be putting up a section on my website, to go with my Arch, Road and Race and any other small suppliers section. Regardless of if he is a nice chap or not, and regardless of if I am doing work for him or not, I would only recommend him as a customer, with experience of his service, and so far that is a Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Just to add/confirm - our 'chinese seaweed' foam was also in for ages - very high mileage and probably should have been changed many months before - but even so, will be slightly happier when it isn't there! See here Big update! here 80,000miles in 3 years plus Edited by - angus&tessa on 12 Mar 2005 22:25:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Dropped the sump a few weeks ago to change oil, and have a look at baffle. Cars done 23k, and I have no idea if this was changed previously. Foam was like new, although we changed it anyway. Also, a question. I refilled with fully synthetic 15w 50, which was recommended by a severner I met somewhere, as a good all year round oil (weather wise). When I checked the manual, it states 5w 40. Did I use the wrong oil?????? Will this matter???????? Still Shaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngbutnotslow Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Ozzy, There are endless threads on oil but you wont have done any damage with a 15/50. I found the 5/40 too thin for track days, Fine for the winter. I have been using a 10/60 castrol but will change to a genuine full synthetic ester based oil when that is the engine has been put back together! Matt - see my car here Son of Oldbutnotslow here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanB Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Angus, I've only just clocked the credit on the Hellier site - nice one. Thanks also for the input on Jason and the company. Back to the upgrade equation. I run my own business and contracts are projects basically, so income to the business tends to be "lumpy". Hence I have a prepared speech for SWMBO every time I land a new piece of business "well dear, this new contract will bring us in xxx so I can spend yyy on the car. Please feel free to continue looking for the horse you want, as you have for the last 4 years without success. OK?" (the cross fingers that the perfect horse does not appear in view). Seems to work.... 😬 Hope to sign a piece of business tomorrow. hence I may have a visit to Jason coming on VERY soon. Cheers, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Something different to my VX XE on SynerG must be going on here. I replaced the foam baff on that after 10000 miles and it was like new in feel / flexibility. I think went DS so no foam. But what is going on? Heat, oil's what? I have heard rumours that mixing mineral and synth can cause problems... Is the Kseries baffle so much thinner and more intricate perhaps? Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Edited by - stevefoster on 13 Mar 2005 10:13:59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 Well it's not mixing of synth and mineral - this is a new engine-build and I haven't got anywhere near to synth yet... Heat? Nah - the OT seemed fine - spending most of its time around 70ish when running (this was during the really cold weather a few weeks back) - but it did rise fairly rapidly (as did WT) in town or when stationary - nothing worrying in the absolute temps though - WT would hit 90 in traffic with OT 5 or more degrees behind IIRC. I've not seen a VX baffle, but I strongly suspect its exactly the same stuff, just a slightly different shape. Project Scope-Creep is underway... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Mine was more like uncooked Egg Noodles than seaweed. (Seems to be a Chinese theme here though). I put it down to a change of oil type without changing the baffle. I've since had two with a consistent oil type with no problems. Now dry-sump so left all that behind *thumbup* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 I can confirm that after two days of settlement there is no coolant in the oil which was drained from Myles's engine, just a sludge which is the remnants of the now pulverised baffle. I am sure that there are many out there that have survived 000's of miles with no problems, however it is the sheer unpredicatability of the phenomenen and the potential catastrophic results that would steer me well away from use of the foam. Neil Balbach and Matt Rimmer have both sufferred with dissolved / broken up foam baffles which have caused them a lot of pain, Neil's because he thought the oil contamination was coolant (as did Myles) which necessitated a rebuild and head gasket change and Matts because he ruined his bearings when the sump pickup became clogged. Dont be the next victim. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riggsbie Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Just been reading this thread with much interest.... Where can I get one of these Hellier baffle plates ? It sounds like this is a "must have" part in place of the nasty foam-from-hell...... Thanks, Riggsbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 see here Grant Black and stone chip and currently not going ☹️ but waiting to me made better curtsey of Dr. Dave Andrews. Not long now hopefully?! here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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