Pierre Gillet Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Last night I frightened myself re-reading the Article of Richard Ellis in LF July 2004 issue, 'Upgrading the K". Richard found significantly damaged big end shells while the engine had only done 7000 miles and 1 track day, apparently without a Appolo tank. I am wondering if it was just bad luck, or if it happened also to some of you. I am also wondering why the crank main bearings apparently were not checked. Pierre Edited by - Pierre Gillet on 29 Jan 2005 15:13:03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Virtually every Caterham engine I have had apart that has not had either a dry sump or Apollo tank fitted has suffered with big-end bearing damage, the pattern of damage is entirely consistent with oil starvation. I recently took apart an Elise which had been on several track days but only had 4000 miles recorded, the big-ends were as bad as Richards and had started to spin in the rod eye (dual tang rods), the owner was astonished. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I had big end shell damage on an engine that had never run under its own power!! I bought it brand new from Rover, took it apart for head work and modifications and when I took the big ends out they already had bits embedded in them and scoring on the surfaces. I never did get anywhere with a warranty claim (probably wouldn't have gone anywhwere seeing as I had dismantled the engine) and now the dealer has closed down I probably never will. How these things are expected to last 12000 miles before the first oil change when the damage may already be there and just waiting to get worse beats me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bricol Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 "Never run under it's own power" - can't remember seeing them run in Rover's K-series assembly shop, but in a more northern car manufacturer, brand new engines are filled with oil, connected to a cooling system, exhaust, fuel and air and run up to see if they work, while still on the pallet they sit on to be transported around the factory. Then disconnnected, drained and sent onto their destination - if it's into a brand new car, it could be a lucky one (as I'm not sure they do it to all) that is pulled out of the line and tested on a rolling road - blasted up to the red line in every gear and then it joins it's siblings being driven, with minimal time loss, to a parking area where it may sit for a while before being whanged onto a transporter. And a new car buyer gets in their new car, and treats it with kid-gloves for the "running-in" period to avoid damage . . . And if you only knew what goes on in another manufacturer's gearbox assembly shop . . . Bri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 So apart from a liner / head gasket / top end problem the Rover also seems to have a bottom end problem as well. Never knew that. So far I have imported sixty (60) Duratec 2.3 engines. I personally have stripped quite a few. All the shells were perfect. Maybe the Yanks are better than the Brits at producing engines. Shame. I know the Rover in the hands of one of the specialists such as Oily can be turned into a powerful, reliable unit. Such a shame the the Brits don't seem to have the pride or the brains to produce something good out of the box. I also don't like Rover's politics over the years, so there is nothing that endears me to anything they produce. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Grim, what is the cost of a brand new engine ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Pierre, If you are looking for a relacement, I may have something of interest. Paul Another One Powered by Hellier Performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 The bottom end problem is associated with the peculiarities of the installation rather than some inherent weakness. The Caterham sump is very shallow and not particularly good at combating surge, windage is also a problem. Give the engine a good uninterrupted oil supply and any problems will disappear. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Oily As with all engines. So a dry sump is recommended on a K to combat the problem in a Caterham installation? Is th Apollo sufficient? The Elise is having the same problem with a transverse installation. Does the Lotus wet sump have the same problems as the Caterham one? Obviously Caterhams and Elises have more grip and get chucked around a lot more than your average car. The Zetec and Duratec seem to be OK even on slicks with a wet sump as long as you keep the oil level up. Not enough oil and you will no doubt have the exact same problems with the Ford lumps. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 "So a dry sump is recommended on a K to combat the problem in a Caterham installation?" Absolutely. This isn't news - it's always been the case if you're going to run on the track especially with grippy tyres. I'm not convinced that an Apollo on it's own is sufficient, I would dry sump every time (with any engine). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Mike I have a tuner friend who is ex-Mountune. He runs a Duratec in Silouette class with a wet sump. The car is a space-frame Puma running on 10" slicks front and rear. Lap times are below Touring Car times. No oil surge problems. All the YB turbo engines he built for rallying were mainly wet sump engines so he has a lot of knowledge in this area. The sump is the Raceline supplied item. Just keep the oil level up! Having said that all the hot Duratecs I have built have been fitted with Pace dry sumps as that is what the customers wanted. No point arguing with that, although it does make the installation a bit more complicted. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Just as well we are not debating the reliability of Italian engines 😬 Duratec Se7en SV, built in Dubai, pics here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owjay Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I know someone who took their 7 to spa without an Apollo or dry-sump. Apparently it went bang on the 3rd lap! If you're doing hard tracking/racing on grippy tyres and widetrack susp, then dry sumps probably a good idea! I'd guess the apollo with a well topped up level is sufficient for your average tracker. Although I heard quite a few engines in the academy (all apollo) last year went pop in the space of a few races, and we're running on crappy CR322's and roadsport suspension. Not 100% sure it was bearings though, might have been low-compression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Nawww.. no need.. the Brit made ones are the current world standard :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_E Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 HI Pierre, I was surprised as well when we took them out. Dave was a fine fellow and his engine has now done about 9000 miles without trouble. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Neil Never owned an Italian car! Not sure if they are reliable or not. Did an Alfa head years ago and that was about it. Guzzi engines are very reliable, perhaps Ducati a little less so! Especially the old bevel twins which were not very good at all. Are modern Italian engines rubbish? I don't know. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Naaah, prolly just the electrics, I was just trying to balance your anti-British rant, not that I have ever liked Brit engines anyway (apart from Roller aero engines that is). Duratec Se7en SV, built in Dubai, pics here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Dobuy It wasn't an anti-British rant. It pains me to see we have no decent UK designed and manufactured engines. The Italians, French and Germans all make their own. So what British engines are there apart from Rover? TVR straight six and V8? Aston Martin? Jags use Fords now I believe. Rollers use BMW. What else? AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Ilmor, Zytech and Cosworth. Cummins, Allens, Perkins and Lister (just) But returning to the thread: I am a very average track day user (average 4 per year for 7 years) plus 4500 road miles per year. After 2 years I fitted an Apollo tank and after 24000 miles stripped the engine and found the bearings in very good shape. I have been careful, before and after Apollo to over fill the sump and change oil twice per year. I have never run slicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 A friend of mine told me this story, he works for an ‘British’ car manufacturer : One day, I had a meeting with my Purchasing Manager ; I explained to him the difficulties that I was having with one of my parts suppliers, late deliveries, pour quality and terrible customer relations…..and I asked for his advice as to how to deal with them. He replied “ We don’t need suppliers like that, it’ll be a pleasure to sort them out, who are they ?” Our own Engine shop !!! *confused* Another One Powered by Hellier Performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino ferrana Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Bricol do tell... Without mentioning names of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 Tony, What about 032Rs SS ? Are they grippy enough to cause damage ? Mind you, I am quite slow anyway Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordy Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 quite a few Ford engines are made in the UK.... Dagenham makes most of the diesel engines and Brigend makes alot of Ford and Jag petrol engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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