Freestyle suspension upgrades - which options?

[jimmyslr]

I am definitely going to upgrade my suspension and will definitely be visiting Gary and Len (again). The question is what to go for.... Anyone who would like to share their thoughts would be greatly appreciated, especially those who have "been through" some of the stages. Having searched the archives there is not too much talk of the comparative advantages of wide vs superwide for example. The comments tend to be "great" which, whilst useful, does not speak volumes!

 

The car is a SLR running adjustable Bilsteins with Freestyle springs; the options I am thinking of are quite wide:

 

1 - adjustable AVOs all round, rose jointed/alloy

2 - pushrod front and AVOs on rear

3 - as per 2, but Superwide derivatives

 

There is also talk of Nitrons and Ohlins dampers in place of AVOs, but my impression is that one needs to get a bit techy in speaking to Mr Nitron/Ohlins and an off-the-shelf package might be better for me.

 

I will call Len to chat this through, but was keen on some users' opinions

[Luke Beaumont]

I'm in a sort of similar position, particularly the pushrod vs superwide pushrod route. Len has invited me to come for a looksee which I shall do, but as you say there's not a lot of comparative experience out there. My fear with the superwide is that it may change the docile, tail-out handling of the seven by dint of shortening the wheelbase to track ratio. I'm convinced by the positive reports of the pushrod setup, and want to move to that in some form, as my current suspension is way too hard to be comfortable & safe on bumpy backroads.

 

Not much help to your dilemma but it may give you something else to think about!

[jimmyslr]

I am more or less there on the pushrod thing too, although I wonder if this is upgraditis getting the better of me. That would be the usual story 😬

[Dave Barrow]

I have all that freestyle do as regards my suspension except an arb as I dont need one. I couldn't be happier in comparison to my first 7 which had wide front now have sv rear and super wide front. The turn in is the first thing you notice much more aggresive the precision is up and the car feels more settled and comfortable over rougher roads. The next thing you notice is the increase in grip which you can only discover on a track. I know all will praise the upgrades they have done but hand on heart I could never go back to a traditionally set up 7 my only frustration is not being a good enough driver to exploit it fully yet.

With Gary and Len sorting the car as well you end up with a very neutral and progressive behaviour.

Having experienced the grip you can get from only 175's all round Len has totally re educated me as to how grip is achieved.

 

If you want to come and have a look and blat before you make any decision let me know you'd be more than welcome.

 

Dave B Superlight No.175 Freestyle superwide Pushrod SV rear and aerofoil mmmmmmmm!

[jimmyslr]

Thanks Dave, most interesting. I am interested in your offer of a visit, but Cheshire is a long way for me. I will have a chat to Len and see if I can find some examples closer to home.

[Dave Barrow]

It's worth asking Len about there Duratec car as this is the only other 7 with the same suspension set up. Cheshire will be to far unless business takes you this way I'm not sure Len would advise super wide with out SV rear but that really is only a guess.

 

Whilst I have 'only' 140bhp having more won't help me round corners quicker on it's own and that is where you have most fun after all. To my mind you should alway's start with the best suspension you can then worry about the engine power.

 

Dave B Superlight No.175 Freestyle superwide Pushrod SV rear and aerofoil mmmmmmmm!

[AndyOH]

Jimmy,

 

I was at Brands Hatch on Saturday and Freestyle had their car there. Their suspension set up was obviously working very well on track as the car was handling like it was on rails coming out of Druids and Clearways. I was suffering power understeer on the exit of those bends; I have a standard SLR and I am seriously thinking of having Freestyles handling pack fitted to the car. At the moment I can't afford a push road set up. Gary had a quick look at my car and said he could improve the handling quite easily. I think I'll treat myself just after christmas.

 

Let us know what you decide to have done.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

 

 

 

Edited by - AndyOH on 29 Nov 2004 13:06:48

[jimmyslr]

Spoke to Len who was very forthcoming. The most likely option for me seems to be pushrod front and AVOs on rear, but not superwide track rear. The latter would be expensive as I need to junk/replace my dedion tube, drive shafts and (carbon!) wings. Ignoring superwide rear, it still comes to roughly £2200 (if fitted and set-up by Gary over a day). Not cheap, but how do you put a price on enjoyment!

 

I will probably pop in to see Gary/Len and their current car to have a poke around.

 

 

[Dave Barrow]

sounds like I guessed right you won't regret the change the suspension is where the fun is go for it! And it's worth noting that your pushrod will be one up on Caterhams CSR version as they don't utilise rising rate a v important difference.

 

Dave B Superlight No.175 Freestyle superwide Pushrod SV rear and aerofoil mmmmmmmm!

[noddy]

I was at Brands on Saturday too and confirm that the Freestyle car looked very stable (good driver helps too!), when I save up some pennies I'm going for their pushrod front suspension

 

R400 .......... I love it

[ajax317]

Hi all,

 

I was one of the lucky guys driving the Freestyle car on Saturday and I had my 1.6 Superlight (with newly-fitted adjustable Avos) there for back to back comparison. If it's any help I made the following (track biased) observations:

 

1. The steering feedback was significantly better than any standard widetrack I've ever driven.

2. The front end response was much much more linear.

3. After initially being concerned that the increased track would make the car trickier on the limit, I found that it naturally adopted a drift more akin to a Formula Ford.

4. Through Surtees and Paddock the super-widetrack/rear diffuser really did seem to settle the rear end and inspire more confidence.

 

I suspect this may fast be becoming a cliche, but it genuinely did handle on 032s like it was on slicks and I suspect that had we been allowed to get some times they would have confirmed it.

 

On the whole a big and I'm still

 

Rob

[AndyOH]

Noddy,

 

Did you see the prisoner colour schemed SLR at Brands?

[dino ferrana]

I wonder who started all these Freestyle's system is better than Caterham's rumours? It seems to me that an aftermarket mod is going to struggle to be better than a ground up new design.

 

The CSR does have rising rate front pushrods (I have this on good authority).

[Bare]

Perhaps.. But take a quick Peek at the "new and Improved" CSR Pusrod setup. Compare it to other Pushrod designs.. (Fraser Cars ..google 'em their onna Net) the Cat one is errr Odd. Shocks are at an unecessarily odd angle as opposed to vertical, the Bell crank ends are way outside of the chassis...not ideal.. for reasons not apparent even to carefull observation.

Aftermarket suppliers/modifiers have little to fear.. once again .

[AndyOH]

Dino,

 

Were you at Brands on Saturday and did you see how Freestyles car handled??

 

I was following their car and as Isaid earlier it handled like it was on rails. Their suspension set up is quite impressive and Gary May of Freestyle obviously knows what he is doing when setting up suspension on a 7. You only had to look at the A032R's on the car and see that they were as smooth as silk which is a positive sign that the suspension is working properly.

 

After seeing how their car handled I am having Freestyle put their suspension on my SLR.

 

Andy.

 

Edited by - AndyOH on 30 Nov 2004 21:08:16

[Lennie]

Thanks for the nice comments guys. we are trying to get back to Brands for another track day, think it is on, or about 19th, if any of you want to come down and have a ride out, can't promise a drive, but you are all welcome. We are very pleased with the car and have just got it back from a magazine who are doing an article on it. They wired it up with there own telemetry on there own track and they use the same driver, not ‘The Stig’, so it can be as accurately compared to a whole range of cars, both road and race. The car was taken to Silverstone the weekend before to set it up but as you all know, especially Bowser, it was so slippery we could not do any worthwhile set up work, so unfortunately the magazine got it pretty much out of the box. Sorry I cannot tell you how we got on as the mag as made it clear we must not say anything and besides they had to download the data back at the office for the full story. I will however tell you when the magazine is out and you can read the article, which we have not seen, to see how we got on.

 

[AlanB]

Interesting thread. Any preferred tyre types and sizes which work best in combination with the suspension? In my case a SL (hence wide track) with about 160hp. Currently on CR500 175/55 13x6s all round. Am considering Yokos with more rubber on the rear wheels.

 

Cheers,

 

Alan

[dino ferrana]

I'm sure the Freestyle system is great and I didn't say it wasn't. But to say it is better than the CSR system is somewhat premature when that car isn't yet production ready and hasn't been on the same track at the same time.

 

Bare the CSR system is developed by Multimatic AKA Dynamic Suspension. I reckon they might know a bit about suspension and are almost certainly better qualified than you to make judgements as to the right things to do with the suspension?

[AndyOH]

I'm sure the CSR system will be very good, all I am saying is that Freestyles set up on their own car is very impressive, which as I said I saw for myself whilst following their car around Brands.

[dino ferrana]

Andy my initial comments were more aimed at Dave Barrow's reply which seemed to suggest the CSR front was falling rate?

[jimmyslr]

I am glad to have generated so much debate and interest. It has to be said that in my research I have heard nothing but praise for Freestyle in terms of design, advice and set-up. My experiences with Len and Gary bear this out and I think I am about to send some more business their way!

 

Len - pls give us plenty of notice to go out and get the mystery magazine. It could be a rapid seller at WH Smiths!

 

James

 

 

[ajax317]

I think the best comparison we've had of the CSR to date was at the Brands festival - the R400-engined CSRs were lapping about the same pace as the normal R400s (both on the same tyres) IIRC. Check out http://www.mst-group.co.uk/meeting.asp?event=44133&source=brscc2004&eventtype=brsccclub and go through the times - unfortunately there are no testing times, there were a couple more CSRs.

 

Either way, I think I can safely say that the CSR pushrod or Freestyle standard widetrack pushrod on its own is probably not significantly better at generating 'g' than the equivalent standard setup, so most of the the difference is in feel and response. Now where they're concerned it's subjective and very difficult to quantify 'better' .

 

It's all academic though, because to the best of my knowledge Caterham has no plans to produce a pushrod system for the standard chassis and certainly not as a retro-fit option. It does beg the question though, if laptimes are your thing, whether the super widetrack Freestyle system on a standard chassis would outpace a CSR 200

 

Edited to correct my lame HTML code, and again and again. I give up , cut and paste

 

Edited by - ajax317 on 1 Dec 2004 13:18:48

[dino ferrana]

There are some other varialbles in their though Ajax. The R400 spec cars have been roughly the same for a few years now that is there is a massive amount of knowledge on how to set them up and they all know Brands. T

 

he French SV-Rs have only been around a year so they are at the start of the learning curve as far as set-up goes. There would also be very little set-up info available for Brands for the SV-R spec cars.

 

Plus how well do the French drivers know Brands? Most of the field for R400s are likely to have been round that circuit many more times than the French SV-R drivers!

[ajax317]

A bit off topic, but it's my experience that the 7 is so good that the difference between an indifferent setup and a good one on a track as short as Brands Indy is only a few tenths at worst (I've tried it, in an R400 but admittedly not an SV-R).

 

I was also thinking in time-terms more of the CSRs that the UK guys were testing, and I guarantee they know Brands and have had plenty of testing time to get a good setup

[dino ferrana]

I understand those cars were only being finished on the Friday night! Hardly a huge amount of time to get a set-up!

 

If the difference is only tenths then any set-up will be struggle to be comprehensively faster! The only way to get an idea is to have the same driver drive both for the same amount of time.