Brad Tipp Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 I've noticed that when I'm on a track day the oil temp on my car rises to over 100. Having checked the sender and the guage to confirm they are correct, at least to 100, and checked that I haven't over filled the car with oil, I think the only answer is to fit an oil cooler. However I already have the "Apollo" anti cavitation tank installed and it doesn't look like anyone (including Caterham) does a kit of bits that will fit with this still in the system. Does anyone already have a set up like this - K Series with Apollo and oil cooler? Does anyone know who can sell me a kit of bits that I can swap out? I know I can take it to the various specialists, but i'm looking to see if I can avoid it to start with. P.S. I checked back through previos threads, and this doesn't seem to have been covered before. T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 How much over 100question.gif Modern synthetic oils should be OK up to 120/130 degrees. Unless you are approaching that sort of temp, I wouldn't worry too much. What's the water temp like under the same conditionsquestion.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Tipp Posted August 10, 2001 Author Share Posted August 10, 2001 it can get to between 110 and 120 on a hot track day. The water temp doesn't rise much above 85 even on a hot track session. I know the oil can take it, but I figure if I fit an oil cooler then I can stop fretting about it !! I suppose I'm looking for piece of mind really, and not having to keep staring at the guage on a track day (which might explain my driving). T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 Yep, point taken. I have nothing useful to add I'm afraidblush.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 I know someone who has... you just need an oil cooler that'll fit somewhere and a new hose (similar to the ones apollo use). So the oil flow would be out of sandwich plate into top of apollo -> bottom of apollo into oil cooler -> out of oil cooler into other connection on sandwich plate. Tor Atle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Tipp Posted August 10, 2001 Author Share Posted August 10, 2001 Tor, can you measure your friends hose lengths? oh er if you pardon the expression ! I presume he/she(!) has fitted the Oil cooler in front of the radiator? If so do the hoses fit down the side or go over the top? Did they fit the cooler at the top of the rad or at the bottom? What size of oil cooler was used? Can one person ask any more questions in one post? :-) If you can answer these questions it should mean I can just order the parts and fit it myself in the next week or so, good job I can buy oil with my company fuel card! T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 Sorry but I won't be seeing him in the near future... His oil cooler was bought from Caterham I believe, you'll possibly get more parts in the kit than you need but it's just over 100 pounds. The cooler is mounted just behind the radiator, low down. You could always order just the cooler and measure up lengths for the hoses and go to the nearest shop..? Sorry I can't help more. Tor Atle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 Brad I have the exact same problem. I can do about 10 laps and then have to let the car cool off for atleast 30min before going back out. I also have a K running an appolo. (150bhp 1600cc) Let me know if you find a supplier. Simon. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 I think you guys are over-filling your oil systems and are dumping a lot of crank power into the oil. I have logs of my Supersport 1.6K lapping with stable oil temperature topping out at 92 degrees for the twenty minute sessions at the club trackday at Cadwell in May. How are you determining oil level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Tipp Posted August 13, 2001 Author Share Posted August 13, 2001 Pete, I have almost exactly 6 litres of oil in the car. I checked the oil level by: 1. Running the car for 2 minutes. 2. leaving it 30 seconds. 3. dipping the sump and looking at the oil level on the dip stick. Is this too much oil for a 1.6 K with the Apollo? P.S. With 5.5 Litres of oil it didn't even register on the dip stick after 1 min! I've also ordered an oil cooler and i'm going to see if that works when i've fitted it later this week. I think I can make all the hoses fit T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 OK, time to admit to a cheat. My Apollo tank installation has a non-return valve in the restrictor line. This means that I dip the sump at standstill and don't have to worry at all about running or not running. I dip based on as much oil having drained from the head into the sump as possible. Over the years (I am assured), the K dipstick has been changed. Mine is a yellow plastic jobbie with a single notch. I never did get a decent explanation of where the oil was supposed to be so I have always aimed to have it slightly above the notch. I have, on occasion, seen high oil temperatures but it has always been related to rather too much oil sloshing around. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Tipp Posted August 14, 2001 Author Share Posted August 14, 2001 Ah ha - I believe that's what's known as :- a. Cheating. b. Being too cleaver by half. Well the oil cooler has turned up, so I'm going to fit it this week and see if it makes a difference or not. I'll postn a reply either way. T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 I fitted an Apollo to my 1.8SS a couple of months ago. The Caterham kit instructions said "The engine and separator tank have a combined oil capacity of approximately six litres. Fill the engine up with oil and run the engine for two minutes. Stop and wait for 30 seconds. Dip the oil and check level. NOTE: Always check the oil level this way as any other method will give false readings." I did this, having added six litres of oil, but there was no oil on the dipstick at all. I ended up using seven litres. When I checked this with the factory, they said ensure the engine's hot and dip the oil immediately after switching off to avoid oil drain. They also confirmed that the max is around seven litres, and that the yellow hatching represents about 3/4 litre. Confusion reigns. I also get oil temps up to 120 or so on trackdays. Perhaps, having read Peter Carmichael's comments, I've added too much oil? JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 In another direction..... What Oil Pressure do you get at Idle? I get just under 2bar. Is this ok? Simon. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Why would it possibly not be OK? You haven't changed anything in the oil system, so it is the same as the Rover 25 (and most other normal cars) where you don't have an oil pressure gauge and you just assume everything is all right because it doesn't blow up. I suggest you just observe and characterise the behaviour of the oil pressure vs. temperature, revs and oil type and then you will know that a change in behaviour is showing you something untoward. Also, the gauges aren't calibrated so the 2 bar figure is an approximation at best. In case I haven't been clear enough, this is perfectly normal. Perhaps there is a need for a "New Owner FAQ" getting down to a level of detail with issues related to running a car rather than an appliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Maybe I should have made my question more clear. I get 2bar with an appolo tank after the temp is at 100c like Brad. We all dont have years of experiance to rely upon Peter, so I was just asking to put my own mind at rest. I have owned my 7 for 12 months and it usually sits at 4 Bar but when it is hot it seems to drop pressure. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 The oil gets thinner as it gets hotter, hence the pressure drops (although the *flow* doesn't). This is perfectly normal behaviour. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 it usually sits at 4 Bar but when it is hot it seems to drop pressure. Which, if you turn it around, tells you that when your idle oil pressure is ~2bar, your oil is up to temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Tipp Posted August 15, 2001 Author Share Posted August 15, 2001 Peter, a new owner FAQ would be a very good idea. I've owned my 7 for 2 years and up until the low flying article about oil temperatures never worried about it. Ignorance was bliss... everything worked... the oil temp went high... then it went down again between track sessions... ahhh joy. Then I read an article saying anything above 90 was badness and you suddenly start worrying and fitting oil coolers and checking pressures and having sleepless nights! This forum is a god send to me and I suspect to most of the other members who read more than they post. I'm sure you don't want to put people off from asking questions. I would be happy to help out on a K series FAQ as I think it would serve the dual purposes of getting people the info they need and raising the signal to noise ratio on the alias. Simon, in answer to your question I get the same oil pressure as you 4 bar cold 2-3 hot. T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhill Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 ASUI, all K series cars should have the oil checked with the engine running, except those with a dry sump. This is what it says in the build manual, and this is what I have heard from numerous sources quoting Caterham. It seems the instructions that come with the Apollo tank contradict this. However, fitting an Apollo tank doesn't alter the situation inside the sump, so I would have thought that the procedure would be the same for all wet sump cars. After all, you are checking that the level in the wet sump with the engine running is adequate, and the fact there's an air oil separator somewhere in the system shouldn't matter one way or the other. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Jon, It's not quite as simple as that. When you switch off with an Apollo fitted, some (I don't know how much, but maybe up to a litre?) of the oil in the separator tank drains back to the sump (unless you've inserted a one-way restrictor somewhere like Mr Carmichael). This raises the oil level above the running level. The problem seems to be how long to leave it before dipping the oil. Is it 30 secs, 0 secs, or what? JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhill Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 John, My point is that if you don't switch off the engine, then no oil will drain back into the sump, and you will test the level in exactly the same way as a non-Apollo tanked wet sumped K (i.e. with the engine running). Surely the point is to check there is enough oil in the sump to avoid surge, but not so much as to get windage. This bit of the system can be viewed in isolation, and what happens to the oil after it's left the sump until its return is irrelevant. It could go through an Apollo, an oil cooler, the driver, and I don't see how it affects how you check the level in the sump. Even if a small amount drains back between stopping the engine and dipping, you will have less oil in the sump when the engine is running, than a car without an Apollo that followed the 'dip whilst running' procedure. This doesn't make sense to me. FWIW I always dipped with the engine running when I had a car with an Apollo. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 With the Apollo fitted oil level should be checked with the engine running at idle for at least 30 secs, the oil should be at normal operating temp around 80C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 It should also be noted that the apollo system has a small bleed off restrictor valve in the aeroquip hose line which allows the air bubbles and some of the oil pressure back into the cam cover. This bleed off reduces the overall oil pressure by about .25 Bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Jon, I agree with you about checking the oil while the engine is running (there's a little label on my cambelt cover saying to do just this). I also agree that the logic applies with or without an Apollo. What puzzles me is that the Caterham instructions for checking the oil level after fitting the Apollo kit contradict this by specifying a 30-sec wait! JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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