TorAtle Posted August 6, 2001 Share Posted August 6, 2001 I've been in contact with Pace to see if they had any plans for a kit for the K. Here's the short story: - We maybe looking into creating a kit for the end of this year maybe early next year - To be honest the price would be around £625.00 to £700.00 mark. - If we had more approaches ref this kit we would react more Quickly I would think this means ditching the internal pressure pump (comparing the price to the Vauxhall and Zetec mode1 kit), so if you look at http://www.paceproducts.co.uk (click on Dry Sump Systems and then on Vauxhall 16V) you'll have an idea of what it would look like. Looking at my car there doesn't appear to be room for a sump-mounted pump like the Zetec kit, so in this respect I'm not sure if it will be better than the Caterham offering, but all the other kits have dual pickup-points so we can always hope for that! It looks to be an alternative to buying the gold pump assembly / dry sump pan from Caterham, plumbing and finding a good spot for the external tank will be left for us to sort out. The price isn't all that different so Pace will need to show some engineering skills and give us a better package. I will be posting this to the sevens list once the tourers are back from Euro2001, in the mean time could those interested please show some hands. Tor Atle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted August 6, 2001 Share Posted August 6, 2001 Hmmmm. I may very well be interested... What I'd really want to know is: 1) Will they be able to design one that overcomes the problems with the Caterham system (which I think are having to use the internal pump and throwing belts at higher speeds?). 2) Will it fit in the 7 installation without trashing ground clearance. 3) How much will it cost? 4) Any hassles using it with the Apollo? 5) How much will it weigh? If we can persuade them to get on with a decent design I could be tempted into another "upgrade". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted August 6, 2001 Share Posted August 6, 2001 Andy M. Tempted? You know you'd snatch their bl%dy hands off to 'cure' that 'K' problem!!!!! Watch this space eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted August 6, 2001 Author Share Posted August 6, 2001 Andy, 1) PC should really comment on this, but a couple of issues: if the Caterham bellhousing tank w/high tower is not large enough then you could solve this by fitting a 2 gallon well baffled tank. I think they will use the Slim Jim 2 stage scavenge pump + pressure pump which is apparently well proven. As said dual pickup points. Internal pump not likely to be used (if that's a problem). Belt speed I don't know anything about. 2) They know we're going to use it in a Caterham so... 3) As stated plus 100 pounds for a tank plus plumbing. Or put another way - Alex Wong said that his system was 800 less than the one from Caterham. It will be in that ball park. 4) It will be incorrectly designed if we need to use the apollo. But to answer your question - there isn't much clearance between the dry sump crank pulley and the apollo tank, so you may have to relocate it. 5) Your guess is as good as mine... Any comments about Pace as a company in general? More hands please! Tor Atle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Tipp Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 No comments about Pace, but I would be very interested in this at a cost of £800. Getting things past the wife is hard enough, but £1500.00 for a dry sump kit is way to hard to explain... Is it possible for Tor to build up a list of interested K Owners to take to Pace? i would even be willing to act as a test case over the winter if need be. T 1 PPB - Superlight "Well yes officer i'm not arguing, it's just that [insert excuse here]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Pace are well-renowned. Arnie will pass comment on the fact that SBD use Pace dry sump kits. Chelspeed will tell you that SBD can build engines that work. Using the internal pressure pump is not necessarily a problem. You have the added assurance that the pressure pump will carry on going even if the belt falls off. The pressure pump is only a problem if its design just isn't up to the volumes demanded in a race engine where the clearances might be a bit bigger, or whether the revs lead to a cavitation issue. The pickup siting with the Caterham system is not too clever. There are many ways that this can be improved, including scavenging separately from the head. This becomes more critical when you try and run a small external tank as you also have in the Caterham system. With better scavenging, the caterham bell-housing tank would be more than adequate. So to answer Andy's questions: 1. Not using internal pump adds a vulnerability to the system and may be curing a problem you don't have; the scavenging arrangement and belt arrangement have many opportunities to be better: position pump lower; larger belt; no spring loaded tensioner; opportunity to arrange scavenge from the head. 2. If we supply a caterham for them to fit it to, then ground clearance can be part of a design spec and they can't get it wrong. 3. Less than a rebuild 4. I will be testing the Apollo with a dry sump system in the next couple of weeks. (belt and braces) 5. It will weigh more than not having it... Pace will need to determine/produce: - the size of the pressure stage - the size of the scavenge stage (depends on pickup sites, oil retention and everything else) - the pump speed - pickup locations - mounting bracket - a front pulley for the engine with a poly-vee for the alternator and a toothed (probably) for the oil pump (NOTE THAT THIS WILL PROBABLY BE A SOLID PULLEY WITH NO HARMONIC DAMPER - better ask them whether ordinary crankshafts will snap and flywheels fall off... Either that or use the ordinary pulley and the three row poly-vee belt that that determines). Those are my thoughts as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Excuse me for changing the course of the thread, but: "a front pulley for the engine with a poly-vee for the alternator and a toothed (probably) for the oil pump (NOTE THAT THIS WILL PROBABLY BE A SOLID PULLEY WITH NO HARMONIC DAMPER - better ask them whether ordinary crankshafts will snap and flywheels fall off..." Why is a non-ordinary crankshaft not likely to snap/have it's flywheel fall off when the damper is removed? I'm still running the stock boat-anchor pulley with damper 'cos I'm a scaredy-cat. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Fatigue in the crankshaft. A billet crank will cope with a lot more vibrational nonsense than the original. RK will have lapped the flywheel to the crankshaft so there is a fair chance that the bolts are just loaded in tension and are not frapping away ready to snap. Or that's the way I have looked at it seeing as I have just got hold of a solid pulley because I realised I needed to gear down my alternator some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Dixon Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Add me to the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJY910 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 OK Tor, I have now changed from "definately maybe" to "definately probable". Anders J was reluctant but having seen him drive I'd say he should really get one. I'll talk to him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted August 7, 2001 Author Share Posted August 7, 2001 Peter S, welcome to blatchat. Good to have another nordic 7 owner here! Peter C, scavenging from the head sounds like a good idea. It will be about 80 pounds more. Any idea how small a tank we can get away with in that case? A neat thing about Slim Jim btw is that it's very flexible, so the head scavenge part can be optional. I just had a thought. The return hose from the oil tank won't be very far away from the bypass(?) coolant hose, this will allow an oil/water cooler to be fitted quite easily. This in combination with the triple pass ali rad and 74c thermostat will ensure control of the temp and also fast oil warm-up. Tor Atle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJY910 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 > Peter S, welcome to blatchat. Good to have > another nordic 7 owner here! Just to make certain it fits into a LHD car... (btw I'm not new to blatchat. I've just been lurking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted August 7, 2001 Author Share Posted August 7, 2001 There's a slight problem with a LHD car but I'll find a way around it. Or if we're lucky Pace will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 This is probably stating the bleedin' obvious, but you'll want to scavenge from the exhaust side of the head because the engine is canted over that way. One assumes that the pump will be on the inlet side of the engine, so some pipery required. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted August 8, 2001 Author Share Posted August 8, 2001 Mike, far be it from me to question what's obvious, but if we - at a given time - need to scavenge the head because the oil tank is running dry then we must experience surge. Right-handers will be ok but say a sustained 1G left-hander...this will compare to tilting the car over 45 degrees, surely the little canting of the engine will not be as important..? I assume that we can't use two pickup-sites on one scavenge stage because the pump will prefer to suck air if it can..? Tor Atle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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