Chelspeed Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Is this the CP3177 caliper using CP2399 pads? If so then it sounds like the lug mount version of the same caliper used for the AP Racing race brake kit (but which is radial mount so needs a race rear ear). Dave York has a set of these calipers fitted to standard ears and standard rear discs. They were engineered to fit (lugs machined and drilled to suit) by BG Developments in Bromsgrove. Disadvantage of these calipers are that they are designed to fit vertically at the back of the disc so the fluid feed is at the bottom and the bleed nipple is at the top. Fit them to the top of a Caterham ear and they fit flat so need to be unbolted and tilted to bleed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 Chellspeed, No it's a CP3677 with CP2399D43 pads. It's radial and the bleed screws are at the top. I will have to make the mounts, but looking at the drawings I don't think it will be difficult. They should be here early this week, so will let you know how I get on. Will probably leave the full fitting with the line lock to Christmas but will make the mountings before. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 I've changed the subject because, the subjects changed. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Interesting. Are you planning to fit it with modifed standard ears (designed for lug mount) or with modifed race ears, designed for radial mount CP3177 calipers. Are the drawings email or faxable? If it works and you get a caliper that can be successfully bled in situ then I could be interested. Edited by - Chelspeed on 11 Oct 2004 13:19:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Just spent an enjoyable 1/2 hour surfing AP's pages. It would appear I've been quoting the wrong number for the AP racing 2 pot radial mount rear race brake caliper, it's CP3677 and not CP3177 which is the lug mount version. You can see them on the AP pages, link above, then follow caliper selection, rally rear, 2 pot then pick the family CP3177 or 3677. So what John Freeth is offering you is what I already have, the Caterham standard offering for race rear brakes. And if this is right then it needs unbolting and swinging upright to bleed Good news is you won't need to develop new ears, you can just buy them from Caterham, known as race ears. Bad news is the disc will be in the worng place, offset too far outboard to suit the standard sliding caliper, you'll need a new disc with a deeper bell or a spacer (comes in the Caterham race brake kit) to space the disc more inboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I think you can keep the standard disk undo the bell and insert the spacer or at least I thought that's what I did, it's still a bit of a pain though, especially the bleeding part!! Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Yep thats what I meant. Either use an alloy spacer with the standard disc, which is what Caterham supply with the race brakes. Or for a lighter option get a disc with a deeper bell, which is what I did, then skim the disc to 6mm, crossdrill it, mill 1 inch holes between the mounting holes on the bell face and mill holes in the circumference of the bell We all know about cheese engines, I've got swiss cheese brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hehe that's fairly extreme but I guess it all helps 😬 Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Slow down guys. I've got the callipers now (arrived am). I need to keep the standard disc as I will probably have to swap back to standard calliopesr and handbrake for MOT. I would have had the CC units if it wasn't for the change in discs. I've got the radial units so I can make my own fitting bracket in order to retain standard disc. Looking at the unit I can't see why it would need to be removed for bleeding. I'm going to remove a calliper in a few minutes and offer up the new one to see whats what. Report back shortly. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Norman, if you are prepared to consider swapping calipers, bleeding brakes etc for every MoT then surely adding "swap discs back to original" doesn't make it a lot worse? This would enable you to have any discs you wanted. You can keep the spares wrapped in an oily rag in HM's airing cupboard. Don't want them going rusty after all. 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Boss, I think you may have solved my problem. If I wrap myself in an oily rag and live in the airing cupboard will I stop myself ageing? Anyway, what's an airing cupboard? Where on the car does it fit? Right, back to business, The new calliper will, at first looks, fit very easily. I will make a threaded rod with a "union" on the bottom. The bolt that goes through the ear will bolt to the union and the rod will go through the calliper and be retained by a nut. I'm going to pop down to the machine shop tomorrow and see what I can do. ps, It could do with a larger disc, but will be ok as is. The AP calliper has a "bottom" to it so it won't drop down an extra 1/8" as the "bottom" fouls the flange. I haven't got pads yet so not sure if this is a real problem. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Edited by - nverona on 11 Oct 2004 17:07:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Did you check the wheel on? The standard sliding caliper is very "thin" on the outboard side of the disc as there's no piston that side. That means the disc can sit a long way outboard. If you fit the new caliper over the standard disc then there will be more caliper sitting outside the disc than with the standard caliper. Check this doesn't foul the inner edge of the wheel spokes. It did on mine. So I ended up with a deeper bell to bring the disc and caliper further inboard. The bleed nipple has a drilling going down into the space behind the piston. On the race brakes caliper, which I now think is CP3766, the drilling goes down into the piston space at a point that will be at the top of the space when the caliper is mounted behind the hub. If you mount the caliper above the hub (as the Caterham installation) the drilling enters the space half way up so will not bleed the top half of the piston space unless you unbolt it and swing it 90 deg to vertical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Chelspeed, It will foul the wheel as is but I've got 1" spacers and longer studs to go on. If you send me an email. I'll email back the drawing and 2 photos' of the new calliper laid in position. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 yhm The race brake spacer is 1" inboard for the disc so 1" out for the wheel should do nicely. Edited by - Chelspeed on 11 Oct 2004 20:37:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Chelspeed, trust you got pictures and drawing. Interim update. I've got 4 swing bolts coming. If they're ok then fitting should be simple. I will be able to adust calliiper height and depth relative to disc. They will be here by Friday and I will fit calliper on trial basis (not connect hydraulics). I then need to get pipe union to allow same fitting for both callipers. If this works the cost is - calliper is 140 each, the bolts are 1.70 each and add a few quid for brake unions. Say £290 plus vat (£340 total). I should be able to change callipers in under an hour plus time to refit handbrake. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_ed Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Will you be able to do it in under an hour if you have an accident and the car is in a ditch somewhere with your insurance assessor on his way!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_ed Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 That sounds a bit bitter, but its not... I've strongly considered converting my car to some nice 2pot ali rear calipers, and swapping them back for MOTs, but it would render your insurance invalid, and the consequences of getting caught could be quite grave. For example if I crashed into a 50grand Range Rover, and was in hospital with broken arms, and my car was in a police pound/recovery company pound, then I would not get chance to refit the legal calipers before the insurance assessor saw the car. If he noticed, I could be left to pay my own claim (13k), but also that of the 50K range rover! Not forgetting any legal punishments. Decided it wasnt worth the risk... I once crashed my mini and had to beg a lift home to go and collect the catalytic convertor, and refit it in the carpark at work before the insurance company came to pickup the car! Edited by - mr_ed on 13 Oct 2004 12:04:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Mr Ed, I'm aware of the insurance consequences. I'm not sure every seven owner who doesn't have a handbrake is. The same would apply to my illegal number plate, my illegal exhaust (over noise limit) and probably several other things. I have worked with insurance assessors and have spent many an hour in insurance renewal meetings. Insurance companies are not out to find every loophole to nullify insurance policies. If the car without a legal handbrake rolled down a hill and caused damage or injury I think that would be a different matter. If my car had a moving RTA and the steering had been modified which caused the RTA that would be a different matter. What do you think the insurance company would have done with my Citroen XM (a few years ago) which had a front handbrake that came off as the brakes cooled and the car would roll down the hill outside my house. No one was ever injured but.... What about a car involved in accident as you describe which has a faulty handbrake or, indeed, brakes? Anyway, I thank you for pointing this out. I am working on fitting a handbrake to the propshaft with a small lever directly above. This will follow when I've got the calliper fitting sorted. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Got the pickies today, been away. Many thanks. These are the same calipers as the race brakes. Still think you'll need to turn them upright to bleed them. Time will tell. Can't really visualise your swign bolts in action will await your report and pickies when it's done. Road legal handbrake can be as simple as a hole in the tunnel and a big screwdriver. Put the hole over the UJ at the back of the gearbox and when the screwdriver is inserted it goes thro the UJ and locks the prop. Simple and legal. Can't get much more mechanical than a big screwdriver.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 I'm "thinking", you can probably hear the wheels turning. If I welded a bracket on the chassis to fit a band brake around the prop shaft with it's actuating lever coming straight up through the tunnel at elbow level I would have not only a legal handbrake, which wotked, but one which wouldn't be queried by MOT testers. It would be lightweight as well. Is it worth pursuing? Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 19, 2004 Author Share Posted October 19, 2004 Ok phase one done. Swinging bolts arrived today and have been modified and theory works in practice. You can see what's been done here. I've still got to get brake pads and make the link brake pipe but these to tasks are just a case of doing, no brain power needed. The nice thing about this fitting is it will be simple to swap back to the handbraked unit for an MOT. I've got an extra set of the "kit" required so if anyone wants to do same email me. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Christ! Go very steady the first time you use them. Are they 12.8 spec swing bolts? Do they hold the caliper steady enough for it not to rock when the brake force is applied? They look very flimsy compared with a solid ally bracket and allen bolts as the standard design. Not saying it won't work but it looks a bit too heath robinson for my liking, your call on everything else but not sure about brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_ed Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 That looks very dodgey! Get some ali blocks made up instead of the swing bolts and use proper 12.8 bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 19, 2004 Author Share Posted October 19, 2004 Chelspeed, I would agree with you if the head of the eye wasn't sitting right down in the calliper. To shear that off will take far more force than the braking could generate. They are rock solid, the 10mm bolts fit snugly. I could make a square block with a stud going inwards through the ear, but that would mean removing the disc to remove it. I will, of course, test it. I will do about 10 miles with heavy braking all the way then check the fixing for tightness and movement after. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Faulds Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 That is quite simply terrifying! You've managed to bend those gate fixings yourself, but you seem happy that the braking forces wont? You've also pre-stressed them in bending them, leaving them wide open to fatigue failure, and the point loadings the washers will impart onto the curved surface mean you're on borrowed time imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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