Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I'm going to change my Seirra rear callipers for something lighter and that work better. Anyone got any experience of Alcon and/or Willwood. Wilwood do a 2 pot which I'll need to measure the mounting lug centres to see if it will fit without mods. Alcon directed me to James Whiting, but James & Ruth are away this week. Of course if anyone knows of a 2 pot ali, lightweight calliper with handbrake, that me even be better. Have been told to use Golf rears, but there appears to be several versions. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Edited by - nverona on 19 Oct 2004 14:31:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Norm, my friend has recently changed rear callipers for the Golf alloy rears. They're virtually and visually identical to the Sierra rears, being a single pot sliding calliper design, but as they're in alloy they are very much lighter. I'm afraid I don't know which Golf callipers they are, but from looking at his I reckon if you had the chance to take one of your existing callipers to a scrappy, you'll be able to find the right one. As I previously said, they are visually identical. No-one *yet* makes a twin pot rear with handbrake mechanism built-in. Hi Spec have been displaying their version of such a calliper for about 4 years at the Autosport show, even going so far as to taking orders for them this year, although I'm still not aware of anyone having actually received any. Apparently Hi Spec is a difficult company to deal with. In fact, the owner is said to be particularly unreliable and abrasive. There's even a web site out there which details a rather unfortunate clash between him and a customer (who seemed very reasonable in the write up). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 V7, thanks, saw the web site about Hi Spec, reminded me of my dealings with Superlite (see my web site - other upgrades) So will keep away from that. VW do a twin pot which is fitted to the GTi. But there are at least 6 different part numbers on the EPC and they are not a normal stock item. They're also expensive at over £200 with the mounting bracket. Without ordering a set I can't tell how much modification is needed. I believe Alcon do a direct replacement but without a handbrake. I'm going to remove the HB and cables (must be at least 1 kg there) and fit a line lock on the tunnel. Worst case is to refit existing callipers & HB for MOT. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 It has been suggested to me that if I wanted to fit a proper hydraulic handbrake then for the MoT all I'd need to do is hook a handbrake cable around the handbrake handle mechanism and *tie* the cable ends to the pads, through little holes you'd need to drill in the pad flanges. Apparently the MoT station is not allowed to make a judgement call on the engineering. They are only to confirm that a cable is present and then test the effectiveness of the brakes using their rollers. Sounds like it could be a goer, and the cable would be easy to install/remove for the MoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 I had thought of that but I'm going to have a word with the MOT tester (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Hi Guys, I work for the company that made the Sierra rear calipers and also makes the Aluminium bodied Golf rear calipers. I can confirm that there are many different calipers on the back of the Golf and they have different bore sizes from 36mm upto 41mm on the high performance/cabriolet models. The Sierra rears are 43mm so you should look for a 41mm bore in my opinion. These can be found on the GTi and Cabriolet cars. Others will have 36 or 38mm bores and can be used but will give more front bias. The size is usually cast into the Aluminium body, right on 'top' of the caliper, near to the window/hole in the bridge. If you can find the right parts I will happily help identify the bore size (if you can't) and may also be able to provide some help with installation info etc... Justin A closed mouth gathers no foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Beaumont Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Handy to have you around Justin. Are the two types of caliper identical, in terms of mounting bolt centres, disc offset and radius? I can't believe we'd be that lucky! Also what 'mark' of Golf are we talking about here? As you mention cabriolet I guess it's mk3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 My friend fitted his directly to the de Dion ear where the Sierra ones came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Thanks V& that anwsers it. I'll pop down to one of my VW customers asap and get them ordered. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Sounds good! Any idea what the weight saving is? AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Are the two types of caliper identical, in terms of mounting bolt centres, disc offset and radius? The honest answer is I don't know without getting out the drawings - but my initial reaction was "highly unlikely" However V7 says they fit - so that's a bit of luck 😬 It would be Mk3 Golf and I don't think there is much of a weight saving. The change occured because customer marketing dept's liked the idea and with VW on board (huge volumes) the costs became attractive. Justin A closed mouth gathers no foot. Edited by - JAG on 5 Oct 2004 12:07:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 How about I get one for a Mk 3 GTi and see if it's a straight fit and what the weight/cost is. If it's Ok would a bulk buy be on the cards? norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I think the part-alloy calipers are from the MkIV Golf not the MkIII. They're also on modern Audis such as the TT and A3/S3 and other VWs like Passats. AFAIK the mounting holes are not exactly the same - they're close but they're not the same. Westf*eld are using the VAG units now and provide different uprights for use with VAG and Sierra calipers. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Norm, if you can wait until next week, I'm seeing my friend on Friday night. I ought to be able to more fully investigate his rear clappers and report back. I'd hate to be the cause of your incorrect purchase particularly as I know Dan and other Cam7ers have investigated this at length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 I have a VW dealer getting me 1 rear calliper to see whats involved. If it will fit I'll make any brackets etc and keep a template so more can be made. I will also source any handbrake cables etc required and fit a lightweight hydraulic handbrake. If it's successfull and wortwhile I'll put the whole lot together in kit form at cost price plus a % to NtL. The object is: 1) save weight whilst keeping a legal handbrake. 2) get a better rear footbrake - one that will bleed and auto adjust correctly. 3) Have a handbrake that is in a position that is easy to use. This was going to be one of my Christmas jobs but looks like I'll take a week off at end of month - assuming there's an intrest. My contact's off till Thursday so will get it all moving then. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here ps Sorry V7, I wasn't ignoring you. More info, will, of course, be very welcolme. There won't be a cost involved as if the callipers are too complicated to fit or are too heavy they'll go back. Edited by - nverona on 5 Oct 2004 13:16:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyDave Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Performance Braking Monmouth do the rear calipers and can supply Pagid pads to fit in them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Guys, interesting information. Personally I would be just as worried about the cable being a different fit as I would the bolt holes and offset. However, if they are as similar to the Sierra ones as JAG suggests then we might be in luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Dave, I've been speaking to John & Perf. Brakes for 1/2hr now. He says the Golf Mk4 callipers are single piston but not sure about Mk 5. He's emailing me a drawing of an AP twin piston calliper with radial mount, again with no handbrake. It's about £140 each. I will ring Rally Design in morning and discuss the Wilwood range. There is a 4 pot with mounting lugs 88.9 (the Sierra is 90mm) £123.50 each, and a radial mount 4 pot at 119.50 each (I've got 2 of these on the front). The mounting plates for the radial mounts are £21-24 each. The 2 piston calliper has 82.6mm or 95.3mm lug centres. so this may not fit as easily but costs only 69.50 each. Then they do a spot calliper for a seperate handbrake which costs 45.50 each with brackets at 17.50 pair. I would still need to do something with the braket but it doesn't look too difficult. From a price aspect there's not a lot in it. It's going to be just under £300 for the pair. So, I guess it'll come down to which combination will be easist to fit. I'll ask if RD will send me 1 each of the 4 options to see how they look and, on Thursday, check with VW on the Mk 5 rear calliper. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I thought about using 2 pot ali calipers and the Wilwood mechanical spot caliper for mine, but the spot caliper is really really nasty. It isn't a proper sliding caliper - it's designed so that the whole thing slides along two grooves in the top of the caliper body, with the mount being two little 'prongs' that go into the groove. Nasty, nasty, nasty. Eventually I'll get round to making my vapourware handbrake setup - a cross between a mountain bike V-brake and a DeLorean handbrake caliper using Fireblade brake pads. But not yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 I've thought about putting a wrap around brake on the front of the prop shaft and operate with a push down handle sticking up through the tunnel. On a De Dion car the prop shaft shouldn't have much lateral movement. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 The latest rear calipers with integrated handbrake are much better than the old Sierra items. They are easier to bleed (still not perfect) and the handbrake is good enough to give repeated 1 in 3 hill hold performance on cars weighing three times that of a Caterham - so why mess about with seperate mechanical handbrake calipers???? If they are good enough for Toyota/Honda/Nissan/VAG etc... why do you think they will fail under the use you guys give them? The last production car fitted with such a set-up was the old Jaguars (upto late Eighties I think) and they are widely accepted as being unreliable and prone to seizing up solid with corrosion. Justin A closed mouth gathers no foot. Edited by - JAG on 6 Oct 2004 09:13:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 Justin, I've not fully given up on the Golk unit. I'm told (by John at Perf Barkes) that they are only slightly lighter than the Sierra unit and are single piston units. On that basis they do not fully fit the objective. As my original desicion was to fit Wilwood's and a line lock, swapping back to Sierra units and Handbrake for MOT, any alternative must be close to the weight of the Wilwood and 2 (or 4) piston. Before anyone says that Johns advice is prejudiced he had a Golf unit in his hand along with an AP unit similar to the Wilwood whilst he was talking to me. He was not trying to sell either but giving advice only. he's sending me a drwaing of the AP unit. Now looking at a prop-shaft handbrake. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Hi Norman, The real problem is finding an adequate handbrake mechanism - I think you'll have difficulties with any of the systems you describe. Plus you'll probably end up with a total system weight similar to the Golf units - they're only about 3 1/2 Kg each and give a service brake plus handbrake. John Freeth at Performance Braking certainly does know his stuff - he used to work for the same company as I do Good luck with whatever you do and if I can help just send me an email Justin A closed mouth gathers no foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 Justin, I've just had it confirmed that the VW units are single piston. I'm not too bothered in changinging back to Sierra's and refiting the handbrake for an MOT (if I have to). I'm almost convinced to get the Wilwood unit and, hopefully it'll be a straight fit (might have to elongate the lug holes to make up the 1.1mm difference. I have one other avenue to explore. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 Desicion made. I phoned Rally Design and spoke to someone about Wilwood callipers, Decided to get radial fitting units. Didn't have credit card in office so went downstairs to get it and when I came up the email had arrived from John at Perf Brakes of the AP radial mount 2 pot calliper. So now Johns getting me two of those. norman verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Mem No 2166, the full story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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