Big Brother Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Can anybody give me some advice on improving the braking efficiency of my Seven? I don,t have the budget to stretch to Alcon and the like, but wondered if changing the pads/shoes for uprated versions will make much of a difference. Has anyone upgraded in this way? If so, how much difference did it make to the standard set up? Steve Emission Internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted August 2, 2001 Author Share Posted August 2, 2001 Woooaaa... The REDid=red> title worked then! Steve Emission Internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Firstly, it depends on what you have got already. I am playing with brakes on my live axle, having first tried Green Stuff and found they didn't live up to their initial promise, I am fitting some Mintex 1144's tonight (weather permitting). However, I have been told on numerous occasions that I cannot get the 'feel' of the DeDion SV with big brakes because my live axle has drum brakes. What I dislike is the rigid pedal that seems to take Charles Atlas type force to get the brakes to work. If the Mintex pads don't work, then I'll probably go for the Alcons as they are cheaper than the APs. With the increase in caliper piston size, I should get more travel at the pedal and hopefully a lower pressure to go with it. What I don't understand is the mixed reviews that the Green Stuff pads get. Is it that they ae great on a track where they get seriously warm but are useless for road use in a car as light as a Seven? If this is the case, will the 1144's be any better - they claim to be competition pads with an emphasis on sprints/hillclimbs so they should work cold. Cheers, Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 If this is the case, will the 1144's be any better - they claim to be competition pads with an emphasis on sprints/hillclimbs so they should work cold. I tried 1144 on the front of a standard brakes de Dion once. Ugh. Rather too many cases of the brakes not really working the first time. I really don't think they're recommended for hillclimb usage. FWIW single seater hillclimb cars often run Mintex 1122, which is a soft road pad. The current trend is towards carbon metallic (the '93' compound) which allows you to stop more than twice. I should think the 1122 could be a good bet for a road going Caterham, but would be a little dodgy for serious track lapping. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 I'm confused here. I ran my car with 1155 front and 1144 rears and then changed over to 1166 front 1155 rear, and it was only in the final configuration that I really noticed degraded initial braking. Consecitive heavy braking from 120mph plus however was staggeringly repeatable. I run Red Stuff in the car now and can confirm its as good as EBC claim. (The above applies to the AP big brakes setup with std master cyl.) I even put Green Stuff in my everyday Fiat Coupe and the brakes have been transformed. EBC inform me the compound for Red Stuff has recently been changed and it now works form 80deg instead of the previous 200deg. What I would say is that whenever I drive the Seven I do not push the levels of braking and cornering until the pads and particularly the tyres have some heat in them, but this is pretty much for the tyres sake anyway. (Could also be that 50yds from my garage door is a T-junction with West Sussex's busiest stretch of road and I don't have a death wish!) Fat Arn See a meaty Vauxhall car here See the Le Mans Trip Website here See the Lotus Seven Club North Kent Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Arnie, You have a fiat coupe as well, is it the 20v turbo, if it is maybe you can shed some light on a funny noise I hear from mine. I hear a mettalic rattling when I back off the throttle, it does it in neutral or in gear, but is most noticable at low revs, ie just dab the throttle and you can hear it as the revs drop, any ideas? Its done it since I bought it almost a year ago so I presume its no big deal, just wandering what it is. Ta Julian PS - sorry the hijack the thread, re brakes, mine seems fine on track with the standard pads/calipers/disks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 I've used a set of Green Stuff pads on the fronts (AP big brake) and they are very good, especially from cold but they wear out very quickly (and produce lots of dust, contrary to what they claim). They also seemed to go off before they had worn out completely (possibly due to the very high temperatures my brakes reached at Rockingham). I've gone to red stuff pads now on the reccomendation of Dave Kimberly and these are still pretty good from cold - fine for road use - and I'll be trying them out on track soon (Oulton Park). Anybody tried Pagid RS4-2's? I hear these are fantastic (if a little expensive) Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted August 2, 2001 Author Share Posted August 2, 2001 My brakes are standard discs/drums at present. The car is a 79 live axle with standard live axle type front suspension. having first tried Green Stuff and found they didn't live up to their initial promise What is the promise? What are the advantages? Steve Emission Internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 The Greens are dusty on my Fiat too. Julian, Mine is a 20VT also. There is a problem of cracking exhaust manifolds on earlier 20VT's (the header on cyl 5 cracks) and this causes a metalic clicking noise. Newer cars,(mines a 99 car) don't suffer due to a redesign of the manifold. I do get a very faint ticking noise (noticeable when driving indoors - i.e. car parks when blipping the throttle through 1500 -3000rpm) but I tried 3 other cars and they all do it. Back to Sevens - the Red Stuff dust emissions are much lower than the GrenStuff on the Fiat. The performance of any pad is also dependent on the condition of the discs. A slight amount of run out will make any bad perform badly. Fat Arn See a meaty Vauxhall car here See the Le Mans Trip Website here See the Lotus Seven Club North Kent Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted August 2, 2001 Author Share Posted August 2, 2001 Two identical posts...25 minutes apart..Skillful or what! Edited by - steve motts on 2 Aug 2001 13:44:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 I have the Mintex M1122 pads on my car which has AP 4 pots on. They were not as cheap as EBC but worked very well up until fairly recently....they seem to have lost their bite after a severe thrashing on an airfield day. I think that 1144 or 1155 might be to hard a pad for a seven. There is more dust from the 1122 than a 'standard' pad but not such that would be described as excessive. The pads do not appear to wear out too quickly but as they have 'gone off', I presume that wear is immaterial anyway! I am interested to learn that Red stuff is the recommended grade as I had thought that Green would be the way to go...... I think Paul Ranson is correct in suggesting that M1122 are fine for road use but not if any very high temps are anticipated. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 I am trying the 1144's because of advice from 'Caterham Midlands' and 'Redline' who both criticised the Green Stuff. I am hoping to get them changed fairly quickly so that I can choose the right ones for the August Hols... Cheers, Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted August 2, 2001 Author Share Posted August 2, 2001 OK, so it looks like its a toss up between the Mintex 1144's and the EBC Green Stuff pads. What type of improvement am I likely to see over the standard pads? At the moment if I brake hard.....very hardsmile.gif I can lock up the rear wheels (just) but I am unable to "smoke" the fronts at all. Will uprating the pads to one the above versions improve the efficiency of the brakes, as well as reducing fade? Steve Emission Internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 It should do. I'd go for the 1144's. I know people who have tried both and say the performance is similar, but the 1144's last so much longer. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted August 2, 2001 Author Share Posted August 2, 2001 Thanks Alex Steve Emission Internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted August 3, 2001 Share Posted August 3, 2001 I'd forget the green stuff, based on my experience anyway, I really couldn't tell any difference over the standard Caterham supplied pads, . There is just no initial bite to them and they make just as much dust too. Maybe the Reds will be better judging from the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted August 3, 2001 Share Posted August 3, 2001 I'm confused here. No! I ran my car with 1155 front and 1144 rears and then changed over to 1166 front 1155 rear, and it was only in the final configuration that I really noticed degraded initial braking. I was specifically referring to 1144 on the front with standard calipers and a Vauxhall. I changed from 1136 because of glazing experiences on trackdays, but never actually had a problem with 1136. I think the gloss on the Mintex web site is somewhat bogus. On my Superlight 1136 was fine with big brakes everywhere, both on track days and hillclimbing. At one Curborough test I had a DOT 5.1 fluid problem but no pad problem. I could see no good reason to try other compounds. With a Vauxhall or Crossflow, especially with standard fronts, there may be a good reason to try a 'better' pad. But I'm really not convinced 1144 will ever be a sensible choice for road usage on a Caterham. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted August 3, 2001 Share Posted August 3, 2001 Did somebody ever tried Red.Dot pads.tThey claim that XK pads ( kevlar-carbon based )i.q. offering reduced disc wear and high thermal stability up to 800°c and requiring less pedal pressure, thus reducing pad and disc wear. These pads work efficiently from cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groutledge Posted August 3, 2001 Share Posted August 3, 2001 Time for my tuppenny worth. I have and EBC setup which consists of EBC vented grooved and spotted from disks with Wilwood dynalite 4 pots ( ~£450, they also do a rear ital disk conversion for about the same!) and drilled rear drums, all from Sejoc 01375 846401. Until recently I ran green stuff shoes and pads all around but recently I have reverted to the normal mintex rear shoes. I use the car mostly on track Here are some honest opinions: - the green stuff pads are cheap ~£26 but and give good initial bite. The problem is they don't last long! one good track day and they lose their bite. They still work fine but hey need more pressure. Having said that they're plenty cheap enough to make them throw away and for use i doubt this would be a problem. - In my experioence with this and other cars the best pads are Pagids. They do and RS4-2 blue compound pad which is not cheap ~£120 an end but having driven a friends live axle with bog standard Girling calipers his brakes felt much beter than mine so I'd investigate these first. I ran Pagids on my Elise and thy're very difficult to lock and never fade/degrade no matter how much stick you give them! - Sejoc do not recommend using red stuff on a Cat period!! the friction (mu) rating is an average over a temperature range and they do not work well at caterham temps ( or so they say ) on the whole i'd try the pagids before spending a fortune on calipers like I did. They really are that good!!. I'd like to run them now but they don't do a pad for my calipers. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhill Posted August 6, 2001 Share Posted August 6, 2001 Alex, How did you find the Red Stuff at Oulton? Do you have Red Stuff in both front and rear? Cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 The red stuff is an improvement on the green but it needs to be warmed up. One good or two good hard braking zones was all it took to get them up to temperature. Still quite alot of dust being produced. Once warm though, they were stunning. I'm still a little unsure how they will last after my experiences with the Green pads going off before they had worn. Graham, Can you get the Pagid's for AP front calipers and standard rears? - and where from? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I had red stuff on the fronts and mintex road pads in the back. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groutledge Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Alex, Try the Pagid web site for your nearest dealer. I've recently tried Ferodo DS2000 and they're much better than Green stuff. The green stuff would go off after only one track day. I've just been to bedford for the day and they hardly seem to have worn. They don't seem to need heat, they don't need bedding in and they bite from cold. They seem a good cost/performance compromise at £50 a pop. Burton performance sell them. Sorry I don't have their number handy but they must a have a web site, besides I know it's on the ferodo web site. www.ferodo.co.uk. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groutledge Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Alex, Try the Pagid web site for your nearest dealer. I've recently tried Ferodo DS2000 and they're much better than Green stuff. The green stuff would go off after only one track day. I've just been to bedford for the day and they hardly seem to have worn. They don't seem to need heat, they don't need bedding in and they bite from cold. They seem a good cost/performance compromise at £50 a pop. Burton performance sell them. Sorry I don't have their number handy but they must a have a web site, besides I know it's on the ferodo web site. www.ferodo.co.uk. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groutledge Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Alex, Try the Pagid web site for your nearest dealer. I've recently tried Ferodo DS2000 and they're much better than Green stuff. The green stuff would go off after only one track day. I've just been to bedford for the day and they hardly seem to have worn. They don't seem to need heat, they don't need bedding in and they bite from cold. They seem a good cost/performance compromise at £50 a pop. Burton performance sell them. Sorry I don't have their number handy but they must a have a web site, besides I know it's on the ferodo web site. www.ferodo.co.uk. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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