Carbon side-screens

[Peter T]

I fancy an electric pair, some that open with a blipper. 😬

 

Support the 7 Society...... Ehhh?

[Joachim Westermann]

@Viscount

This is the problem with the founder of a new business. They do not read the small print. It is not the Basel 2 rating!

 

 

Regards

 

Joachim

mog-racing.com

 

[RESOLVIWOLF]

wow ... Joachim, the boot cover does look amazing ! will definitely be ordering one of those over the winter. Ill speak with Gee about it.

[Bafty Crastard]

Joachim

 

Impressive set up

 

And what’s more your web site works so you can actually buy carbon components

 

R300 NUT'errrrrrrrrrrr

 

 

[DanB]

£48 per square metre for carbon prepreg? Lordy, and I wince at paying £25 per square metre... 😳

 

BTW, I heard an interesting new word the other day - 'vapourware' - can anyone tell me what it means and perhaps provide an example?

[caterhamnut]

It goes without saying that Out-of-a-Box designs will soon have some half-doors available. They will be of a similar standard to our other composite panels, and very competively priced.

You can see our other products and our NEW Brown Stuff brake pads and discs here

I am confident that our designs will sit in the market alongside our fellow composite collegues from both sides of the channel.

 

After all - it is all a matter of choice, and most of us are intelligent enough to make that choice for ourselves. We can do the research, ask the questions, surf the sites and no doubt even return goods if we somehow feel we have been misled. Seems many many customers of both parties do not feel they have ever been mislead, so all is well, and surely there is enough space for everyone. Lets not kid anyone, all this thread is 'advertising' of some sort, regardless of if anyone actually mentions company names, but lets keep it friendly. Sour taste surely does nothing for marketing or customer perception.

 

We at Out-of-a-Box Designs are confident that our products speak for themselves, and that people can make their own minds up.

 

The Caterham composite component market can only benefit from different suppliers, but from what I can see there is enough of a distinction between all the players, in the form of cost, manufacturing methods and construction for all to flourish.

 

I look forward to seeing the Activa range of carbon goods, and know for a fact that it will not only be producing carbon components for the Caterham market, which is great.

One day I may well get a carbon seat from MOG because I think it looks great and when I tried it at Spa I found it very comfortable, more so than other composite seats I have sat in - nothing to do with the construction methods, quality or validity of the other seats, simply to do with my shape! It is my choice.

 

Many people buy the composite stuff for aesthetic reasons - (some of us kid only our lardy selves that it is for weight reasons - admit it!) and from what I have seen that is another difference between the various manufacturers. Different weaves, different patterns - all choice.

 

My impartial view is that having seen the MOG stuff in Spa, being introduced to it by Joachim and hearing about the sorts of tests that this stuff has to pass to be sold in Germany, I was very very impressed. I thought the components looked very very smart, high quality, glossy (which some people like, some don't) and very reasonably priced, and if and when I can afford some or need some, I shall certainly invest in certain products.

 

Equally I have had a converstaion about Activa with Arnie and it does sound like a very impressive set up, with a lot of knowledge and experience. They have some exciting plans for the future, and if they get it right, it can only grow and succeed. I have no doubt that they will make components which I will also want to buy - both for the Caterham and for the other areas they are looking in to. Fantastic that I have the choice.

 

Richard in France should be congratulated for opening up the carbon market to many many people who simply could not afford to use it before Richard came along. Again, a different look, a different price, a different construction method. The thought and care that goes into his stuff is fantastic, as many of you with aeroscreens know.

 

Anyway - enough of that sitting on the fence b*llocks. Fact is that Out-of-a-Box composite products are vastly superior to all the other main players. We have the advantage of working with a vastly superior material, which has inherent honeycomb properties which are not found in the base material used by the others. Our material is also enitirely re-cycleable.

And it is brown - none of this 80's, Miami Vice shiny black stuff.

 

So - make you own choice - make your own mind up and buy from Out-of-a-Box designs

The rest are actually cr*p 😬

 

HUGE UPDATE NOW WITH VIDEO

here

70,000miles in 3 years

[Ferrino]

The MOG boot cover does look great - but it's almost £500

[PaulD]

Arnie:

 

Did you get get my e-mail? Are you prepared to send me a sample?

 

Obviously, the test can extend to Angus' parts as well if he wants.

 

Paul

[david nelson]

am I missing something?

 

We the punter can buy carbon from diffrent places.

 

It comes down to who makes it and at what cost and will it be fit for what we want it to do.

 

I bought a ROF aeroscreen as it was the best value aeroscreen I could buy, even cheaper than CC plastic on. OK it was one of his fantastic 2nds but even at full price its cheep.

 

As Angus said about the seats if the fit you and are at the right price, then it does not make a bit of diffrence if its carbon with or carbon without, cross weave, heringbone ect.

 

If the produce does not live upto expectations and others find the samething then the compony that sold the goods will have to change or it will go under.

 

Let the free market rule

 

 

David

 

 

[Marius]

God, what did I start here ?!? 😬

 

So, who´s gonna write the article for the special issue "Carbon Fibre" of Low Flying ??

[EFA]

 

 

 

 

Edited by - EFA on 28 Sep 2004 22:44:59

[smithj41]

It would be nice to know the differences of the materials that you (EFA) and Mog use. For example it strengths and what happens to it when it fails.

 

I am interested as I am planning to buy some new wings soon, as someone broke one on the car *mad*

 

James

 

Edited by - smithj41 on 28 Sep 2004 09:11:35

[Mike Molloy]

Arnie, you cheeky monkey! 😬 😬 😬

[Steve L]

So, Joachim is prepared to have his parts tested by Paul. ExFA is not.

This round goes to Joachim.

Again, ExFA appears to be desparate for excuses to avoid a head-to-head comparison. I will have to check back through this long thread to see if he did not perhaps cite technical arguements for his product. And now he is turning down a golden and apparently free opportunity to prove that his stuff is better? I really don't understand that at all!

Steve

[PaulD]

Arnie,

 

That's a pitty, because your whole arguement has been based on the superiority of your process, exactly the sort of thing that mechanical testing would support.

 

Paul

[Swiss Tony]

Some people want a cheap product some people want the "real thing". It's partly snobbery & partly longevity. At one end of the market you can buy "carbon look" & at the other you can buy EFA's carbon. It seems to me that MOG lies in the middle. That's fine for some people but even then I have to admit that cosmetically alone the MOG stuff doesn't compare to EFA's or RIF's. The MOG seats & wings I saw recently were not that nice to look at............... IMHO

 

If you're gonna paint it (& admitedly you're probably not because you've bought it for the look), then the views of TSK on the quality of finish, the effort involved in painting & the look of the item after painting are telling factors.

 

The products will speak for themselves.

[YellowSeven]

EFA,

 

So when faced with any product testing your components are sold under a consumer analysis (looking good) rather than a technical analysis (being the best carbon) which you always seem to base your arguements on

Perhaps this time you have opened your mouth one time too many and now it seems your products arent quite as good as your speil!!

 

Joachim

 

A big for standing by your products & process and being willing to have independant tests carried out on them

[Chris K]

blar blar blar.....

I also aggree with a post earlier about business conduct and bad business's usally go pop..

 

I would be very intrested to read the results of PaulD's testing.. CC,RiF,Mog and EFA I hope you all send an example of your vapourware/products (delete as applicable)

 

 

on a seperate note

Arnie... you know where your local DSS office is?

 

 

😬 😬 😳 🙆🏻

 

 

'Going round the corner givin' it a handfull'

[Chris G]

SO arnie askes for:

"I'll happily participate in an LF evaluation, provided such evaluation is chaired by an automotive racing composites expert."

 

Which is what has been offered and now he says that a technical evaluation is no good and he wants a consumer one. Well EFA, looks like you've stitched yourself up good and proper this time.

 

Understanding a little about the technical issues for the levels at which anyone here would have a use then the MOG parts sound the ideal compromise. If you're need full on pre-preg parts then you better have invested an awful lot of time on the computer running the analysis on it or you will be wasting your time. So arnie, which package were you using for your analysis and composition optimisation, care to share the results? No thought not.

[I reply to every thread]

Forgive me but I don't think EFA ever said that consumers wouldn't buy the MOG product - There's no doubt of that - demonstrated by sales.

 

Equally consumers buy stick on carbon sheet & "carbon look ", lights, wing protectors etc etc.

 

That wasn't the point he was making & to suggest that it was is unfair. I suspect that the main type of customer that Activa has will demand a product that is technically very good.

 

EFA - don't get into these rucks let the products speak for themselves.

[Chris G]

AVES:

"EFA - don't get into these rucks let the products speak for themselves"

 

That's precisely the problem, he doesn't seem to want to do that. It seems to me that he's all mouth and no trousers.

[caterhamnut]

Good advice Mr Aves!

 

I think some are missing the point here actually. I have only read through all this once, so maybe I have missed something, but in the frantic rush to get onto a 'have-a-go-at-Arnie-whatever-he-says' bandwagon, the basics have been overlooked.

 

Surely in most Caterham applications the only reason for using carbon is the look, maybe weight saving, but rarely strength - for example the wings are not structural (obviously some interior panels provide structural rigidity). Many racers use GRP ones simply because the cost of constantly replacing carbon wings would be eccessive.

 

From what I can see, MOG's test in the workshop is nothing to do with strength as such, but is answering a question about splinters, and showing that there are not that many. They are indeed using the same principle as has been suggested for F1 in order to reduce the number of punctures which result from carbon shards on the track. That is to use a layer of kevlar in the construction on 'at risk' parts such as wing end plates, front wings, barge boards etc.

 

Equally I can understand what Arnie is saying about consumer testing. Is a full on technical test of the different products actually relevent here, where most people will decide on price/aesthetic.

 

Of course it would be interesting to have a comparison of different materials (and Out-of-a-Box Design will obviously provide as many samples as required!) but from what I can gather no one is actually claiming that their product is what it isn't. The Activa stuff and the MOG stuff can surely only be compared to each other aesthetically and on a price basis, simply because they both use different methods of manufacture and different materials. Both are likely to crack when Mrs Miggins runs into the back of you outside the pie shop anyway! So does knowing that they will withstand x Newtons of ultimate load or y Newtons of ultimate load have the same relevance as it does for an F1 wing, for example? in the use that we are talking about here.

 

IMO talk of analysis and superiority of process is largely irelevant. If Arnie can sell full on F1 standard parts for a sensible price then great, lets all make the most of it IF his products have the look and the price that suits you.

 

Paul's offer of testing is probably interesting to MOG or Activa, purely from a technical 'be-interesting-to-know' point of view, but is not necessarily a definitive conclusion one way or another. If I was either, I would jump at the chance of this free test, just out of interest, but I also might avoid it - like Arnie is suggesting - if it was to be used here as some sort of final judge. I suspect Arnie is wise to avoid it in the current climate of abuse he gets, but his reasons are maybe relevent (having said that, I do not know if he is or is not sending stuff off, if he already has stuff tested anyway, or what his reasons are for not doing the testing - all this is just speculation!!)

 

I do think Aves advice is correct though Arnie old chap - you don't do yourself any favours by bothering to contradict or question anything Joachim says, particularly as you are likely to be in a similar market! Get the stuff developed and on the market first, and then let good old consumer choice do the work. I suspect there is a healthy market for all - particularly for some of the stuff we spoke about that Activa is looking to develop. Of course you are far thicker skinned than I, and a far more successful business chap 😬

 

HUGE UPDATE NOW WITH VIDEO

here

70,000miles in 3 years

 

 

Edited by - angus&tessa on 28 Sep 2004 11:48:58

[alien]

Any publicity is good publicity?! This can backfire as Mr Rattner found out.

 

I can see which way the customer feet are walking at the moment the reason for this is the company / product image put forward, consistent communication approach, openess and the avaliability of the product.

 

Let the products (when available) talk for themselves, the rest is hot air.

 

If the issue is the belief that there is a genuine trades desriptions breech then there are processes to deal with this...

 

But that said, it is entertaining.

 

 

 

[Pierre Gillet]

O/T

@Joachim: your MOG 400 looks fabulous.

Question we have on the French forum: are R400 road legal in Germany ?

Cheers,

 

Pierre

[Marius]

Do bears **** in the wood ? 😳