Tony Wright Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Car now clicks even after short runs, just get the dreaded click every time. I end up having to rock the car in gear every time to get it to turn over ☹️ Does this mean the starter is on it's way out or the solenoid knackered Getting a bit p****d off with it and just want to get it back to the way it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conorkaby Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Tony I am having the same problem with my K but rocking it in gear makes no difference. Had to get a bump start at the filling station on Saturday. I am looking at doing the starter relay mod as described on the Alcester website though my setup seems to be different. Please let me know if you find a fix. Rgds Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Rocking in gear does nothing to the starter motor, so is miraculous if it makes any difference. Have a look here and here Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 27 Jul 2004 13:09:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 I have had my geared (soleniod underslung) starter appart and cleaned piston etc as recommended. I have fitted the relay mod which made a considerable reduction in the incidents but has not eliminated the problem. At the end of hot days on Le Sept trip I had two occurences, one of which was cured by the jogging of the engine in gear. I had assumed that the click is made by the first stage of the solenoid engagement. This pushes the pinion into engagement and the rear of the pistion completes the main circuit of the motor (?) If the flywheel is in a particular position could it be that the jogging moves it into a more favourable relationship and that the baulked piston (not making final electrical contact) is able to move the full travel. ?? I still do not understand the heat component to all this and I am convinced it began after the battery isolator switch was fitted - comments ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 As a veteran of many a push start, I have had fault free starting since moving to the 1.4kW "race" starter motor, 3 years ago. My battery master switch is an electro-mechanical E-T-A type rather than the nasty red key type. I have no relay modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 Peter, rocking the car in gear has worked every time 🤔 Could this indicate a different problem associated with the K series click 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Tony, we should form a self-help group. But I don't know how to help... I've got exactly the same problem. I've even changed the battery (now it only happens sometimes when the engine is hot). It's been happening since before I fitted the new engine, so it's not that. The only thing left on my list to check is all of the electrical connections, including earths (I have reason to be suspicious of one of those). Failing that I'll have to go for Peter's race starter recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 It happened on que tonight, A short fast trip, then left for 20 minutes on the drive a - click. Put it in third gear and push forward and back - it starts fine But God it is so annoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 I have been through all of this; the rocking business, the lagged pipes, the heat shield,the relay fix and combinations of all four, none of them worked. The only way to restart once hot was to push. My missus was fed up of pushing, I felt that there must be better things to worry about than trying to find places to park and petrol pumps on a slope. If you've arrived at this state, call Brise. It's an easy job to fit and starts every time even at Dijon in the hot sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 If the rocking is helping then it would suggest the starter is engaged on the flywheel Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Brise?? Who, what and how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 9522 Brise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 the relay mod worked for me. The way I knew it was going to work was to wire up a fly lead from the feed on the solenoid. I took it up to near the +ve on the batt and whenever I got the click, I used the flylead to activate the starter. Always worked so I did the relay mod and all has been well since. Make sure that the flylead cannot accidentally make contact tho! If the rocking works, I doubt it does it by freeing a jammed starter. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Graham, I've done the relay mod. It made a significant difference at the time, but it's still clicking sometimes now. I've also got a flylead tank-taped in the boot ;-) Works every time it's needed, but I do have to wat for the engine to cool a bit before I get my arm around the exhaust, and that in itself must help the chance of starting. £250 for a starter! [Gulp!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 From observation it seems to me that there may be two problems with Caterham starters. I) Those associated with heat, not cured by moving the flywheel ii) Those solved by rocking the engine and moving the flywheel. Having examined more than a few Caterham flywheels I have noticed on some of them considerable chewing of the starter ring gear which shouldn't happen with a pre-engaged starter. I think that this is caused by an alignment problem between the pinion and the ring-gear on a high proportin of Caterhams, this causes the teeth to be come mangled which in turn prevent the pinion engaging and therefore the solenoid from fully throwing.When the solenoid doesnt fully throw the starter fails to turn. Rocking the car in gear turns the flywheel aways from it's fasvourite stopping position and to a different position where the ring gear is intact. Sometimes you get both problems together... Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I felt that there must be better things to worry about than trying to find places to park and petrol pumps on a slopeAh, I remember those days. Happy times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Paul Richards Posted July 28, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted July 28, 2004 If rocking in gear works, then it points to a mechanical problem with the flywheel and the starter pinion. If it's a problem encountered when hot, then it could be a case of the starter relay mod being the answer. To find out, as Graham says, fit a fly lead to the solenoid and in the event of a problem, lift the bonnet and touch direct to battery. If it starts every time doing this then the relay is the answer. Worked for me - now 2.5 years with not even a hint of a problem!!! Paul Richards Joint AO - L.A.D.S. (Lancashire and District Sevens) Growing old is compulsory - Growing up is optional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 First: Rocking. I think that the pinion is not able to fully engage and thereore complete the electrical contact via the other end of the soleniod piston. Rocking must put the flywheel into a more favourable position. Second: Peter and Paulo: Have you both fitted the Brise device as a bolt on replacement? £250 would be a price worth paying if the problem was resolved but it must mean that the Brise unit not only has more power but also is not as vulnerable to less than perfect engagement and heat. I wonder if alignment and heat are cause and effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Paul Richards Posted July 28, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted July 28, 2004 Strangely Why put the fly lead in the boot? Why not permanently attach one end of the lead to the solenoid and route the other end to somewhere near the battery and secure so thst the end is insulated. When you have the problem, no need to go near the hot exhaust. Sounds to me like you may have a combionation of problems. Relay will work for some symptoms, but there are other problems with dry joints, sticky/dirty solenoids etc. Suggest you try a search for various other cures. Paul Richards Joint AO - L.A.D.S. (Lancashire and District Sevens) Growing old is compulsory - Growing up is optional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 28, 2004 Author Share Posted July 28, 2004 Have used the car plenty over the last day and a half and this probably sounds daft (I'm a numpty when it comes to anything tech) but after leaving the car to idle before switching off, I then give it a quick turn over without starting and then leave it. Each time I've gone to start car again it's started first time Could this have the same effect of rocking the car in gear 🤔 ie: move the flywheel Could live with this if it were to work every time, suppose only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I wonder if the meshing of the ring gear and the starter pinion gets closer when the engine is hot. (differential expansion??) If so that would explain why the starter fails to go into mesh as easily and why shifting the ring gear around by pushing in gear sometimes works. If the mesh gets so close the thing can't go into mesh then pushing won't help. Has anyone tried opening out the starter mounting holes so that the mesh can be moved out a little? I wonder if it would be worth adding a second feed to the starter. Using a second relay and a resistor a reduced feed could be sent to the starter as soon as the key is turned (i.e. before the main contacts make) This would tend to turn the starter so that if the pinion was 'head butting' into the ring gear out of mesh it would turn until it did mesh. Trouble is you would need a fairly chunky resistor as I doubt the starter tries to turn with much less than 20 amps through it. Of course this would only work if the mesh didn't close up totally. Just a thought Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 That was certainly the case with mine after I put the "new" engine in. I hadn't removed enough metal from the block and as soon as it got warm (not even hot) the starter couldn't turn. Using an angle grinder in situ while retaining all my fingers was fun I'm not sure your idea of a second feed would achieve much as the solenoid screws the starter gear into position before the motor is started, not with much force admittedly. If the gear doesn't engage then the motor contacts won't close. M1 7 SMW 1.4-now-1.8K Mem.No. 10376 Edited by - Tony_Whitley on 29 Jul 2004 09:10:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I'm none too keen on the second feed idea either as its quite a lot of trouble to go to. Lets face it, there are millions of cars out there with starters from the same sources and they, for the most part, work fine. It has to be something specific to the way its installed in the seven. The proximity of the exhaust apart the only thing left is the mounting - if I get the trouble I'll butcher the mounting holes with a round file and take it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I have been speaking to Brise in an attempt to find out why their starter in the same position within a Caterham would not fall foul of the same problems part of their reply goes like this: Quote the solenoid is the only weak point with these (Caterham) units. In the Caterham 'K' series the problem is made worse by the proximity of the solenoid to the exhaust, the heat causes distortion of the brass liner within the solenoid that surrounds the solid armature. The armature needs to slide in this liner without restriction, otherwise the windings are not able to overcome the springs + the mechanical resistance in order to make the contacts. The Brise starter is based on a Hitachi design and uses a solenoid that does not suffer from this problem. The solenoid is further away from any heat source than the Magneton. We do not reccommend using heat insulation around starter solenoids because they create internal heat when in use which is trapped by the insulation. Unquote I will be ordering a unit and reporting my results since without reliable starting solo blats cross country are just ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Tony, It's a straight bolt on replacement, although I did have to grind down a lug on the egine block to enable the starter to sit correctly. This lug is hidden behind the starter, a non technical big file, dremel or angle grinder job. Photos available if required, starter not angle grinder 😬 Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now