V7 SLR Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I have a bee in my bonnet at the mo. Thinking of going turbo and the weight of evidence supports my decision to look into the Audi TT engine (it's being used by Westfield, Grinnell, Jonathan Palmer and Donkervoort to name a few). I know this same engine can be had out of a number of different cars (Seat, VW and Audi) and various states of tune, so I wondered if anyone knew whether there was any fundamental difference between them all. I'd like to consider a high output one, circa 250bhp so I don't want to buy a low spec one thinking all I need do is pump up the turbo only to find the engine internals can't take it. Any info gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joost M Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Here are some companies with a lot of experience in tuning the Audi turbo engines. MTM HPG Rothe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrelevant Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 A bit heavy aren't they Unlike a Focus RS motor (Duratec Turbo) . . . .light, powerful, reliable. After a hi-vis (pocketted side) driver's door if anyone's got one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 V7, I've frequently got access to the VW/AUDI parts database; I could try to check wether the internals are different for different engines... Probably a heavy job, so I'll only do it if you're serious... /r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I may be wrong, but from conversations I have had with tuning people, in and around places, as you do. I belive the audi/vw/seat group engines are of 2 "basic specs" the sub 200bhp and over 200bhp. the latter having a bigger turbo and intercooler, but am not sure weather the internals are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I would imagine they are. I know for sure they are on the diesels; 90bhp to 110bhp and 115 to 130; they all have different cranks! Of course this could only be a trick to take more money from the costumer by having imaginative higher specs, but dare you take the risk? /r Edited by - RJ on 5 Jul 2004 20:21:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 WOW, thanks for the reponses. I am serious, but I understand why you have pressed that point. Perhaps if I try to explain what I need to do, you will see at what stage I am at. 1. Need to find out what spec to look at, and what it's likely cost it. 2. Need to find someone to sell one complete with ECU and turbo. I may not use the standard ECU in the end, but I'd like to perhaps install it and run it. 3. Need to find a suitable bellhousing and dry sump system. 4. Need to sell V7's VHPD-based engine. Finances need to "add up". This has to almost fund itself (I have a little to throw at it... maybe a couple of grand max above the selling price of V7's engine) therefore I'm hoping that the engine will be cheap cheap. V7's engine will be sold with complete dry sump system and all modifications. I will be fair though because I had the head modified by DVA before it was his business, therefore I do not wish to make a profit on the (superb) workmanship that went into the porting of the head. Then again, I have spent a lot in parts. 5. Need to understand whether there's a lighter flywheel or any other mods that I'll want later. Better to find out now and perhaps install them now. So, you can see where I'm at. The decision is based upon the fact that quite a few others are using this engine. I do not believe that it is terribly heavy, certainly I'd expect it to be heavier than a K, but not as much as a Zetec or Vx. I have no idea about Duratecs. If other kit car manufacturers were using it, I might have considered it but they're not. I have to ask why and then turn to the Audi engine. Anyway, if there was a summary of specifications and whether one manufacturer over another is preferable... Thanks a lot for all your responses. Edited by - V7 SLR on 5 Jul 2004 20:33:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I think the 150 and 180BHP are the same base engine with different calibrations in the ECU. I also think the 210 and 225BHP versions are the same base engine but the 225 has twin intercoolers and a different ECU. I'll need to check the details at work (Cosworth Technology - we are Audis official engine technology outlet to smaller OEMS) Fitting one in a seven wont be easy unless you either use a Donkervoort or Westfield adapted Audi ECU and loom or switch to something like Motec ECU. Audi Holland had input into the engine of the Westfield according to the bloke on the Autosport stand (I assume they also did Donkervoort). Donkervoort appear to use the same Ford 5 speed box as a Roadsport so they must have a bellhousing to suit. The VAG group dont have any gearboxes which you could use for a RWD install (apart from the LTvan and I doubt the ratios would be right!) Sounds a bit sad but I was wondering if a K 1.8 Turbo from a 75 would fit?? Should be easy enough? BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidvoas73 Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Hi, You might want to have a chat with Bernard Scouse. 250 or 300+ BHP here On second thoughts, it looks like a tight squeeze. Edited by - wavydavy on 5 Jul 2004 20:41:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Beaumont Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 > I have no idea about Duratecs. If other kit car manufacturers were using it, > I might have considered it but they're not. Westf1eld are using it, and it can't be long before the Duratec becomes a common kit car sight when you've got all the installation ancilliaries available from Raceline. 250bhp is a walk in the park for a 2.3 Duratec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Suggest persuing the Duratec/Mazda/Ford engine route.. the VW units are (in my part of the world at least) proving to be rather unloved... for the usual VW/Audi reasons. LOTS cheaper too, and likely to stay that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 I've just emailed Bernard. Seems a nice installation in his pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE GILBERT Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 V7 I had a ride with Bernard in a 250bhp Audilise at the 'Dyno Curry 3' at Emerald. What a cracking car If I could get up enthusiasm for Elise ownership over the Blade, at 7.5k the conversion is great value. Probably cheaper than K upgrade Anyway it was one fecking quick Elise Steve See My Caterham Fireblade Here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris__ Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Try speaking to Vince at a place called Stealth Racing in Southam Nigel. They did the engine conversion on my Golf, and do DTA mapping on kit cars, and have done many 1.8T conversions on Golfs, Corrados etc. They know the specs inside out. 275bhp on a Cupra R engine, with just a remap is easily achievable. Revotech mapping comes recommended from quite a few people I know through the GTI scene. There is apparently a list of all the differences between 1.8T variants online somewhere... I'm trying to find it. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert heywood Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 chris, stealth racing are customers of mine (snapon tools) and vince has offered to drop the audi lump into my 7 on several occasions, got as far as measuring things up once.... bob, according to stealth there is a gear box that will fit but i cannot remmember the one we came up with... v7, speak to vince at stealth, they know the differece's between the engines, unbustable buggers they are as well. if you need there number drop me a line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Nig, I am sure dave and Karl at Emerald are into Audi engines in a big way. Thats if the complete RS4 engine and transmission in his cupboard was anything to go by. I was told Karl was going to transplant it into his Ur Quattro at some stage. Might be worth having a chat with them The 150bhp unit in my A4 is OK at low rpm but gets a bit coarse at higher revs. Standard dual mass flywheel is shi!te, although it does give VW's sh!te gearbox a chance to catch up 😬 Overall I'm pretty impressed with its smoothness. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris__ Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 What Are The Differences Between The 150, 180, 210 And 225 Bhp Vag 1.8 Turbo Engines?" All the engines are basically the same but there are some important differences to account for their varying outputs. For the Octavia alone, there actually seem to be three types of the 150 bhp engine. The AGU engine is the 1.8T engine in the pre-facelift Octavia Elegance/L&K FWD. This engine utilises Borg-Warner's K03 turbo, has smaller injectors to that in the facelifted cars and does not feature variable valve timing and drive-by-wire (it has an old-fashioned throttle cable instead). When tuned, this engine will not produce as much power as the later engines. 193 bhp seems to be the maximum. The 150 bhp engines in the 4x4 (code ARX) and the post-facelift FWD Elegance/L&K (code AUM) seem to have basically the same inner workings as the 180 bhp engine in the RS (code AUQ). They all have bigger-sized injectors and feature the K03sport turbo. This is a hybrid turbo, using the K04 turbine in a K03 casing. The differences in power between all three engines seem to be merely ECU mapping related. Hence, these engines will produce similar gains when tuned. This is in the region of 205-225bhp. The 210 and 225 bhp engines as found in the Seat Leon Cupra R, Audi S3 and Audi TT have different internals and a bigger k04 series turbo, all which allow it to produce more power. A chipped version of these engines can reach 260-270 bhp. Below is a brief overview of various 1.8T engines. This is not a comprehensive overview, but it will show the differences between the main engines used by Skoda and the other VAG brands. AGU Skoda Octavia 1.8T FWD (Elegance, L&K), 10/96-8/00 Also found in: Audi A3 1.8T and Volkswagen Golf GTI (earlier models) Output: 150 hp Drive: FWD Emission: Non-VVT, EU3 Throttle: cable Injectors: small Turbo: K03 Gearbox: EVS, EGY AUM Skoda Octavia 1.8T FWD (Elegance, L&K), 8/00-now Also found in: Volkswagen Bora 1.8T and Volkswagen Golf GTI (updated models) Output: 150 hp Drive: FWD Emission: VVT, EU4 Throttle: drive-by-wire Injectors: big Turbo: K03sport Gearbox: EBN, ENJ, ESV, FDC AUQ Skoda Octavia RS, 8/00-now Also found in: Seat Leon 20VT Topsport Output: 180 hp Drive: FWD Emission: VVT, EU4 Throttle: drive-by-wire Injectors: big Turbo: K03sport Gearbox: EHA (Octavia RS, 5-speed, long gearing - Leon has 6-speed 'box!) ARX Skoda Octavia 1.8T 4x4 Elegance, 8/00-now Output: 150 hp Drive: Haldex 4WD Emission: VVT, EU3 Throttle: drive-by-wire Injectors: big Turbo: K03sport Gearbox: FEX (5-speed, short gearing) Other 1.8Ts APX: Audi TT, 225 hp, Haldex 4WD, K04, 6-speed APY: Audi S3 (earlier model), Seat Leon Cupra R (earlier model), 210 hp, Haldex 4WD, K04, 6-speed ARY: Seat Leon 20VT Cupra 4, 180 hp, Haldex 4WD, K03sport, 6-speed ARZ: Volkswagen Golf GTI, 150 hp, FWD, K03sport, 5-speed AWT: Audi A4 1.8T/1.8T quattro and Volkswagen Passat 1.8T, 150 hp, FWD or Torsen 4WD, K03, 5-speed AWU: Volkswagen New Beetle 1.8T, 150 hp, FWD, K03, 5-speed BAM: Audi S3/TT (updated models), Seat Leon Cupra R (updated model), 225 hp, Haldex 4WD (S3/TT) or FWD (Cupra R), K04, 6-speed BFB: Audi A4 1.8T/1.8T quattro (updated model), 163 hp, FWD or Torsen 4WD, K03sport, 5-speed Mattijs Diepraam, July 2, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alicat Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Must be OK Aren't Westfield using this engine 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Derek Scarrow has developed built and run a 575bhp version of the 1.8 20v Turbon VAG engine. Perhaps you should get one of those Nigel. Runs on an MBE ecu as well! Ex Fat Arnie Hauling Less Lard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 Gee, no thanks. I'm hoping to stick with the caterham 6-speed box, so something around 250bhp would probably be fine. Does sound like I'm after one of the TT engines though. Thanks to everyone. I'm now looking rather seriously for an engine. Anyone want to buy a dry sumped VHPD with a few modifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaseb Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 My recently written off Cupra will be kicking about somewhere was a 210 but when it had the Revo playtime chip 6 hour demo fitted gave an instant 260bhp and 280lbft... 😬 PS the 210's have twin coolers too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 That's the one I want. If anyone knows where I might find one of those.... please get in touch. I'm in the Midlands, so local sources wouldbe preferable. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Does the exhaust come out the car in the same position as the K or will a reskin be required ? does it physically fit under the bonnet and in the chassis ? What starter motor are you going to use ? Who is going to make the exhaust ? How does the cooling system fit in the bay ? Where are you going to site the turbo and intercooler have you done a realistic costing ? Nice concept but I think you need to up the medication first Nige Edited by - Dave Jackson on 6 Jul 2004 11:43:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulD Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 According to Bernard Scouse's website, weight increases by 50kg. Maybe more of a problem on a Seven than an Elise. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Nige, Have you considered giving Richard Smith at Westfield a call? I had a chat with him at Autosport about the XTR4, and he said the engine was S3, but the gearbox was the longitudinal one from the S4 hence giving a tidy mid engine/rear transaxle configuration. Also said that 180 - 300 bhp was available just by plugging in your laptop. What is the SP on FPA engines? They do 300bhp standard, with 360 available when you press the overboost button... 😬 I have seen ads from a Max Power-esque company called "Jabbasport" claiming pretty serious power (365bhp) from the Veedub lump. Limited longevity? But hey, even if it only lasted 20s they would be the best 20s of your life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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