charlie_pank Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I've just put a deposit down on our new shopping car, a '95 Pug 306Xtdt. I chose a diesel because I think we may do quite a few miles in it, and also I am interested in the prospect of running it on veg-oil (paying the appropriate tax of course!). I've found this site, offering a kit: here and I understand that all it really does is warm up the oil so that it's thin enough to run through the pump and injectors etc... There's also a switch and a small tank installed. This means that you can start on normal diesel in the small tank when everything's cold, then switch over to the veg oil in the main tank when the oil-heater has warmed up. The only other thing to mention is that 2 mins before you arrive at your destination you are supposed to switch back to the diesel tank so that the next time you start you're doing it on diesel not veg oil. Does anyone have any experience of doing this, it all sounds very exciting and I want to make sure I'm aware of the downsides too before getting involved... Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: There is no plan S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 okay the hard part as far as i am aware is sorting the tax out as the car smells like a chip shop. Search around the bio diesel sites about the tax issues thats the nasty legal stuff veg oil is thicker then diesel so to get decent atomisation when you inject it you need to decrease the viscosity there is two ways to do this 1 chemicaly and you end up with Bio diesel 2 heat the oil and you drop the viscosity. This method is used a great deal in marine diesels as we run on heavy fuel which has a pour point of about 50C and you don't get decent viscosity till you reach about 130C. so veg oil you probably only need 60C max. The only issues i can think of is if you get enough lubrication from the veg oil going through the fuel pump as it uses the diesel oil to lubricate the needles in the injectors and what ever bits are in car fuel pumps so you might need to chuck in a little bit of oil into the tank to keep the lubrication up but if your car is okay for bio diesel then i see no reason why you can't run on pure veg oil. let me know how you get on as i have a great intrest in this As to the Pug 306 turbo diesel brilliant car nice chassis Sod the heater wheres my shades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 19, 2004 Author Share Posted June 19, 2004 Cheers Paul, I'll keep you posted. I pick it up on Monday or Tuesday. I think that I have to contact the council to get hold of the Customs and Excise officer in the area. They will tell me how much tax I have to pay on veg oil, then I will be able to decide whether it's financially viable or not. According to the site I mentioned in my first post, the "lubrosity" (surely that's not a word) of veg oil is very good compared to diesel oil, so unless you have a Lucas fuel pump, you'll be ok. (Don't ask me what's special about the Lucas pump...) I also stumbled across a really interesting site that explained that Mr. Diesel originally designed his engine to run on peanut oil. He died under mysterious circumstances while trying to sell his technology to the British navy. Shortly afterwards the petrol companies started offering extremely cheap "Diesel-oil" that could be used in these peanut-powered engines. If I manage to get our new runaround working on veg-oil, then we will have gone full circle! Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: There is no plan S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 what you can run a diesel engine on is amasing my favorite ever was dryed algae ground down and then fired in as a powder using compresed air 😳 (blast injection old and inefficient way of doing it) you can run them on coal dust should you choose. basically with a diesel cycle engine (petrols being otto cycle) if you can get something to burn quickly enough and self ignite you can run on the stuff. The important thing is atomisation to get proper combustion and ignition timing so you can componsate for ignition delay marine diesels run on something that is closer to road tar then anything else at 20C you can cut it up with a knive into cubes i personnely love diesel engine they are great and modern superlong strokes are getting over 55% effiecent which is amasing but you can't get one below 5000bhp so not seven friendly i am very very tempted to order one of those kits for my own car but need to investigate soucing the oil and tax issues so i can stay semi legal I'd love to have a nice big garage and some cash so i could play with this stuff and things like water injection which if done well can give more torque due to the steam created through combustion having more expansion then the combustion gases i know about the increased charge density you can get from water injection used for charge cooling but if you get it right it also helps in the expansion propertys of your charge. If you get a kit give me a bell and i can wonder down and help to fit it as my car can take one allegedly Sod the heater wheres my shades Edited by - thinfourth on 19 Jun 2004 22:59:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 What has this to do with 7's ?? But I'll Bite.. Local University Geeks have been 'Fooling' with Bio-Diesels for a while They euphemistically call it research :-) Apparently it's a wee bit more complex than simply reheating Old Chippy Oils. Do you imagine that yer fuel tank be kept to certain Temp?? Not likely :-) Seems that it takes a LOT of used oil to refine a reasonable quantity of "useable' Diesel... that one could actually just pour into a Diesel engine's fuel tank with no further troubles. Not yet a DIY adventure.. yer likely to turn your errr.. Pig ..into an even more useless lump :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Riches Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Hey Bare....this is Tech talk, and this thread is techy stuff, ok there wasn't an "O/T" on the header, but it's still interesting, as one day petrol, derived from crude oil may not be so good to run your motor on, look at the new hybrid motors from Toyota and Honda, both petrol/electric and hydrogen, why does a motor car have to be powered by a petrol fire, some of us pay a lot for petrol, and an alternative fuel would be welcome, use the oil to keep the hot bits from sticking together, and the wheels to go round and round. Nigel. 1982. 5 speed, clamshells. B.R.G / Ali. The True Colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 They were talking about this on BBC Radio 5 a couple of weeks ago. There are companies that will sell you the reconstituted veg oil that has been altered slightly so that it flows and also tax paid so it then becomes simpler and it is still very cheap. You just need a storage medium at home but that might be the sticking point, as there are very low limits of how much fuel you can store at domestic premises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 20, 2004 Author Share Posted June 20, 2004 Nigelriches and Bare, can you read? Why don't you have another look at the subject? Anyway... What my research has told me so far is that you can either run on raw chip-fat/veg oil or you can run on "bio-diesel" which has been refined to let it flow properly. If you choose to run on bio-diesel, then you can just stick it in your tank and off you go; if you run on raw chip-fat/veg oil you need to warm up the oil before it gets to the pump and injectors so that it's not too viscous. The conversion kits that you buy do not heat up the whole tank, the heater warms the veg oil as it goes through the fuel lines, so that by the time it reaches the important components it is thin enough to be used without any problems. This all seems to make sense to me... then again if you can't even read a topic title correctly, I'm not sure I should be taking advice from you on how to avoid destroying my engine... 😬 Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: There is no plan S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Riches Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Charlie, why the flames?, Bare was taking a pop at you for posting non 7 tech stuff, I have taken a defensive position for you, as this is indeed tech stuff, and as such we should be able to read about it on these forums, sorry if I have upset you by not being able to post a tech reply, but our contributor from across the Atlantic has to much access to to much cheap petrol, and pooh poohs any attempt to replace fossil fuel with renewable energy sources, keep us posted about your exploits with this alternative fuel source. Regards Nigel. 1982. 5 speed, clamshells. B.R.G / Ali. The True Colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 20, 2004 Author Share Posted June 20, 2004 Sorry to all offended. I have a tendency to come across far to agressively when it wasn't meant at all. It was Sunday morning, I hadn't had any coffee, etc... the sentiment was meant, but the tone was unecessarily harsh, I hope it's not too late apologise. Charlie'n'Kermit The plan is: There is no plan S5EVN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardOlive Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Charlie I agree with your comments about Bare - the bloke can always be relied upon to write complete and utter nonsense. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I should check this out with the manufacturer. Some of the common rail EU3 diesels will definitely not run on bio without damage. C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Good topic to bring up Charlie. Out of the 5 cars in my family, 3 now seem to be diesels, so I'm also very interested. I recently came across a guy that is selling kits that introduce a small quantity of LPG gas into the mix too. This apparently, will encourage a higher burn of the the mixtue in the combustion chamber. This may also work with veg. oil. The result of course will be more power and better fuel consumption [about 10mpg]. A bit of each depending on how much throttle is used, but apparently worth the cost, which is a considerable amount, about £1000 for the kit fitted, I believe. If anyone is interested I'll look up the web address. Paul J. - On the road at last. it's only been two and a half years!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 They did show you what was needed on Top Gear ages ago - mixed something with veg oil and put it in an old Volvo and it ran straight away. Can't remember what the additive was though ☹️ Roadsport build photo's here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 they didn't use any addative you can run on pure veg oil unheated on a hot day but it doesn't run brilliantly and you get starting issues in the cold Sod the heater wheres my shades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Charlie, this does indeed work. Bare is talking out of his other fundamental orifice. A mate of a mate known as "Dodgy Sid" because of his hatred of paying any tax unless he can avoid it, or allowing anyone to make a profit by selling him anything, is running a Land Rover Disco on...chip fat from the local takeaway. He gets it for next to nothing and declares his mileage at the local excise. I only heard about this on Friday and the tech details are scant, but I can get full details if necessary. I'm told he adds sulphur (can'timagine this to be accurate) and heats it to achieve a shorter chain length. (I think you need other than sulphur for this to work). Principal obstacles - winter running (mix it with diesel and sometimes petrol too) and the odour of stale chips from the 'zorst. Thin, I share your interest in new fuels, and I remember the algae job. As regards chip oil, I'm sure it works. The only snag is we'd need to cover the whole of Europe in rapeseed plants to cope with the demand. As for India and China, I think they'd have to grow so many plants they'd probably cause climate change... Further details email direct steve.corcoran (at) spab.fr, I'll have a word with DS's mate. BTW he's not really called Sid, it's just his surname's Barratt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I have an idea that you can dilute it with standard diesel oil, probably something similar to that which is done with "bio-diesel". Don't know what percentage though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 you can dilute it with ordinary diesel which gives you some strange hybrid mixture of no certain name Bio diesel is a chemical process that chemically thins the veg oil so you end up with a lighter and thinner oil its not a dilution it is a chemical process. Also in mainland europe most diesel pumps give you a blend of 4% bio diesel with your normal diesel The think that really gets my goat about all of this is the amount of tax you get on bio diesel as it has no tax breaks in comparison with ordinary diesel which is bizarre as it runs at basically zero CO2 emmissions, and it runs cleaner then ordinary diesel. If you do it yourself then you have to jump through millions of hoops to pay the tax on it and stay legal so if the goverment does want to reduce CO2 emissions through tax and not just make some cash from fuel tax then why the hell don't it have a tax break 😳 Sod the heater wheres my shades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 21, 2004 Author Share Posted June 21, 2004 Anyone remember the Diesel Westfield - aka "The Wiesel"? Perhaps it could be turned into the "vegetarian Wiesel" 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 i remeber the wiesel and apparently it is back in action i read about a year ago in a car mag i was very tempted to get a westy and put a modern diesel engine in it but i couldn't afford it so i bought a second hand caterham instead. Sod the heater wheres my shades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Talking abut the Weasel, sort of begs the question of what Diesel engine would work well in a Caterham. it has to be small light and powerful. The only experience I've had recently was with a hired Yaris 1.4 turbo D. It was OK but not very accelerative. There must be something better??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 "It has to be small light and powerful" - That's pretty well all 4 str diesels out then. A 2 stroke would be nice. Imagine the noise and clouds of blue smoke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 you don't get blue smoke with 2 stroke diesels Sod the heater wheres my shades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrm Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I saw the Top Gear item and I'm sure they added a small amount of white spirit to the mix (20ml per gallon?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 White spirit, IIRC mostly toluene and other aromatics. Works well as an octane raiser and antiknock agent, or certainly that's received wisdom with aromatic compounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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