What is the best type of oil?

[Peter MarieEa]

Silkolenes' Stats' do compare favourably to other PAO based oils, in particular Mobil 1, but I suspect the ester content is quite low otherwise the HTST viscosity would be higher.

For example, Redlines' HTST fig' :

 

5W-30 3.8

10W-30 3.8

5w-40 4.6

10W-40 4.7

15W-50 5.8

20W-50 6.1

 

P.S. For Paul, I understand that Amsoils' 7500 series oils are not PAO based, but rather a group III. There 10W-40 7500 series oil has a HTST of only 3.8!

 

Peter

 

Quick7

[Paul Wiley]

Peter,

 

Discovering what you get for your money in oil is a nightmare and no idea why its not properly disclosed.

 

If looking for esters then the safe bet for race oils is Redline Motul and Silkolene.

For the rest its a lottery apart from Redline.

Magnatec promote UMA which is ester but what%

 

The Green issue (not my cup of tea) but Castor Oil base is good! but its not promoted.

 

This is just basestock let alone additive packages.

 

Paul

[oilman]

I'd be interested to see how the Caterham/Comma oil stacks up, I'll see what I can find out about it. Anyone able to send me a sample for chemical analysis or know where I can pick some up before monday? What's it called?

 

Cheers

Simon

[Peter MarieEa]

Simon

 

Since you're seeing the Silkolene people on Monday, perhaps you could get more info' on their additive packages. i.e., Ester % and type, boundary lubrication additives ( for eg. Mobil 1 uses alot of MoS2 ) that sort of thing.

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

 

Quick7

[YellowSeven]

Oilman,

 

The Comma/Caterham oil is only available from Caterham (Midlands or Dartford) Its called Caterham Motorsport 5W-50

 

And it would be interesting to see how it stacks up again the Silkolene products!!

 

If I had any left I would send you a sample, but I dont and I intend to change to Silkolene next! Which reminds me could you mail me a cost for the ProS 5w-40

 

Cheers

[Grim Reaper]

As I posted in an update thread a few weeks ago...Comma's lab have confirmed that neither their Syner-Z, Syner-G nor Caterham Motorsport oils are a group IV base.

They are all Group III Hydrocracked,Non ester/PAO basestock.

Fully synthetic my A**e.

Oops, slipped into rant mode for a moment there

[Paul Wiley]

Rant mode acceptable in circumstances. I think Castrol are moving away from III towards PAO as well and will also contain some esters!

 

As far as I know M1 uses TME ( Polyols) . Three or more shortchain but fat molecules. Polyols are generally more oxidative and thermally stable by 50 C over diesters and 150 C over petroleum oils. These esters have lower coefficients of friction than either diesters or PAO's.

 

By adding a polyol ester at least 5-10% to a PAO or mineral oil reduces base oil friction remarkably.

[Petrolhead]

Can you also mail me the cost of the 5-40 plz

 

SL No 148 but not for long 😬

[CageyH]

So what oil do people recommend for a k series then?

[Myles]

Oh hell! Just stick Halfrauds 5W40 fully synth in. It meets Peter C's industry specs, is on BOGOF until tomorrow and works just fine...

 

Works for me.

 

Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx

 

Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™

 

Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com

[RESOLVIWOLF]

interesting thread, curious about teh motivation behind most of it though

 

has oil choice ever lead directly to an engine blowing up ? if not then personally IDGAF... the nearest bottle of flora will do me, or failaing that what it says in the instruction book

[Paul Wiley]

Jackal,

 

Pics of unknown oil history

 

http://www.rms13.com/imgal/thumbnails.php?album=1

 

Short engine life cars - soap and water!

 

Any comments on Auto rx?

 

[oilman]

What is the point?

 

To educate hopefully and help people make better informed purchases for products that do matter when you are running a performance car.

 

Read this and hopefully it will explain why you only get what you pay for.

 

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions. We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”. Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!

 

Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”? Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”. Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight! They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

 

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

 

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case. But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil, such as PRO S or PRO R. This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!

 

I must just add, this was written for me not by me, the Author is the Chief R&D Chemist for Fuchs/Silkolene and is not a salesman.

 

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers

Simon

 

I have a great article "Lubricating a performance car" that I intend to post here as soon as I get round to it, it's long!!!

 

[oilman]

As this seems to be turning into an oil FAQ, thought I'd post some more infromation that would be of interest.

 

Although the basestock of an oil will be a major determining factor in the lubrication quality of an oil, chemical additives play a major part in making sure that it does all that it is supposed to do. The chemical additive package of an oil is just as important to insuring the quality of a lubricant as is the particular basestock used.

The chemical additive package of an oil is designed to perform a number of tasks and each task is performed by a particular type of chemical. The quality of the chemicals used and the manner in which they are blended plays a large part in determining how well the additive package does its job.

 

As the quality of the additive chemicals increases, so does the price. In addition, proper blending takes a great deal of research. This requires much time and, again, money. Therefore, manufacturers will, of course, charge more for motor oils which contain a high quality additive package than those with lower quality additive packages. They simply can't afford not to.

 

Each chemical within an oils additive package plays a different role in boosting the beneficial properties of it's host lubricant (basestock).

 

The additive package must perform the following roles:

 

IMPROVE VISCOSITY CHARACTERISTICS

 

Basestock lubricants have a certain temperature range over which they will flow adequately. The wider this temperature range the better. Cold temperature starting requires an oil that will flow well at low temperatures. The higher engine temperatures of todays smaller, higher revving engines requires an oil that will perform well under high temperature conditions.

 

Pour Point Depressants

 

In order to improve the flow characteristics of a lubricant basestock at low temperatures additives called pour point depressants are used. Because synthetic basestocks have inherently better low temperature flow characteristics, pour point depressants are typically unnecessary. Therefore, they are normally only used in conjunction with petroleum basestock lubricants.

 

Waxy contaminants within petroleum basestocks tend to crystalize in low temperature conditions. These crystalized structures absorb oil and increase in size. This leads to oil thickening and poor low temperature flow characteristics. Pour point depressants do not inhibit this crystallization, as is thought by many. Instead, the pour point depressants are absorbed into the crystals instead of the oil, thereby lowering the volume of the crystals in proportion to the volume of the free flowing oil. This helps maintain the low temperature flow characteristics of the base oil even when crystallization occurs.

 

CHEMICAL ADDITIVES

 

Higher quality petroleum basestocks have less need for pour point depressants because they have lower levels of wax contamination. However, complete dewaxing of a petroleum basestock is not very economical, so all petroleum basestocks require at least some level of pour point depressant.

 

Viscosity Index Improvers

 

As a lubricant basestock is subjected to increasing temperatures it tends to lose its viscosity. In other words, it thins out. This leads to decreased engine protection and a higher likelihood of metal to metal contact. Therefore, if this viscosity loss can be minimized, the probability of unnecessary engine wear will be reduced.

 

This is where viscosity index (VI) improvers come in.

 

VI improvers are polymers that expand and contract with changes in temperature. At low temperatures they are very compact and affect the viscosity of a lubricant very little. But, at high temperatures these polymers "expand" into much larger long-chain polymers which significantly increase the viscosity of their host lubricant. So, as the basestock loses viscosity with increases in temperature, VI improvers “fight back”

against the viscosity drop by increasing their size. The higher the molecular weight of the polymers used, the better the power of "thickening" within the lubricant. Unfortunately, an increase in molecular weight also leads to an inherent instability of the polymers themselves. They become much more prone to shearing within an engine.

 

As these polymers are sheared back to lower molecular weight molecules, their effectiveness as a VI improver decreases. Unfortunately, because petroleum basestocks are so prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures, high molecular weight polymers must be used. Since these polymers are more prone to shearing than lower molecular weight polymers, petroleum oils tend to shear back very quickly. In other words, they lose their ability to maintain their viscosity at high temperatures.

 

Synthetic basestocks, on the other hand, are much less prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures. Therefore, lower molecular weight polymers may be used as VI improvers.

 

These polymers are less prone to shearing, so they are effective for a much longer period of time than the VI improvers used in petroleum oils. In other words, synthetic oils do not quickly lose their ability to maintain viscosity at high temperatures as petroleum oils do.

 

In fact, some synthetic basestocks are so stable at high temperatures they need NO VI improvers at all. Obviously, these basestocks will maintain their high temperature viscosities for a very long time since there are no VI improvers to break down.

 

MAINTAIN LUBRICANT STABILITY

 

Lubricating oils are not only prone to viscosity loss over time. They are also susceptible to breakdown due to contamination and/or oxidation which decreases the useful life of an oil. Additives are often used in order to inhibit the susceptibility of a basestock to this breakdown over time.

 

Detergents and Dispersants

 

Contamination due to sludge and varnish build-up within an oil can often be one of the limiting factors in determining the useful life of an oil. If this build-up can be minimized and contained, the life of the lubricating oil can be increased. Detergent and dispersant additives are utilized for this purpose.

There is some debate as to whether those additives considered to be detergents actually "clean" existing deposits, but at the very least they aid dispersants in keeping new deposits from forming. Detergent and dispersant additives are attracted to sludge and varnish contaminants within a lubricant. They then contain and suspend those particles so that they do not come together to form deposits. The more contamination within the oil, the more additive that is used up.

 

Since synthetic oils are less prone to leave sludge and varnish, these additives are used up much more slowly within a synthetic lubricant.

 

Some oils use ashless dispersants which are more effective at controlling sludge and varnish contamination than metallic dispersants. In addition, some ashless dispersants are actually long chain polymers that serve a dual purpose as VI improvers in multi-grade oils.

 

Detergents are all metallic in nature.

 

Anti-Foaming Agents

Although necessary for engine cleanliness, detergents and dispersants can have a negative effect on the lubricating fluid within your engine as well. Sometimes, these oil additives can play a part in oil foaming. In other words, air bubbles are produced within the oil. These air bubbles, if not neutralized, will reduce the lubricating qualities of the motor oil. Anti-foaming agents such as small amounts of silicone or other compounds are used to control this phenomenon.

 

Oxidation Inhibitors (antioxidants)

Oxidation inhibitors are additives that manage to reduce the tendency of an oil to oxidize (chemically react with oxygen). They are also called antioxidants.

 

The antioxidant reacts with the peroxides in the oil. These peroxides are involved in the process of oxidation. Reaction with the antioxidant removes them from the oxidation process, thereby lessening the chance of motor oil oxidation.

 

Oxidation inhibitors also serve one more very important purpose. They protect against bearing corrosion. Bearing corrosion is caused by acids within your motor oil. These acids come from combustion by-products, but they can also be the result of oxidation. So, by inhibiting motor oil oxidation, antioxidants also protect against bearing corrosion.

 

Corrosion Inhibitors

Although antioxidants prevent the acids caused by oxidation, they do nothing to neutralize the acids caused by combustion by-products. Therefore, other additives must be used in order to keep these acids in check and to protect engine components from their effects. Some corrosion inhibitors are designed to protect non-ferrous metals by coating them so they cannot come in contact with acids within the oil. Other corrosion inhibitors are designed to actually neutralize the acids within the oil.

 

Anti-Wear Agents

Even with the best of oils there is always the possibility of metal to metal contact within an engine, however slight. Some oils (especially ester synthetics) will cling to metal surfaces better than others, but engines that are left to sit for any period of time may have very little lubricant protection at start-up.

 

This is especially true in cold conditions when petroleum oils do not pump well. To minimize the engine component wear caused by these situations, anti-wear additives are used. Additives such as zinc and phosphorus will actually coat metal surfaces forming a protective barrier against wear. They do not eliminate the metal to metal contact. They simply minimize the wear that occurs during those instances.

 

ALLEVIATE COMPATIBILITY ISSUES

 

Some additives are included in an oil to deal with compatibility issues between the oil and certain engine components. For instance, there are certain types of lubricant basestock that will cause seals and gaskets to swell or to shrink. These effects have to be minimized. Sometimes basestock blending will alleviate the issue, but in other cases additives might be used.

 

Depending upon the particular application the oil will be used for, some additives may be left out while others may be left in. For instance, in order to meet API SL fuel economy requirements, oils are now formulated with special friction modifiers. However, these friction modifiers can cause clutch slippage if used within motorcycle oils. So, motorcycle specific oils do not contain these friction modifier additives.

 

When considered as a whole, Engine oils are comprised mainly of basestock fluids. Only a small percentage of the oil is comprised of additive chemicals. However, addditives can play as important a role as the basestock fluid itself.

 

A high quality basestock blended with a cheap additive package will be poor oil. A high quality additive package added to a cheap basestock is no better.

 

Of course, a motor oil as a whole is far greater than the sum of its parts. In other words, even a high quality basestock combined with a high quality additive package isn't necessarily going to yield a great oil. The company manufacturing the oil has to know how to correctly blend those basestocks and additives so that they perform well together.

 

Oh no, not more debates, lucky the Club's agreed to join our "Clubs Oil Scheme"!

 

Cheers

Simon

 

sales@opieoils.co.uk

[windy1]

"I was following this thread but, a trip to the Ring and 10 pages later it's all got beyond me. Without any biases, would/could someone give me a couple of oils to chose from that would be ideal for my tuned Vx which always warmed up properly and mainly does track/ring work."

 

Sounds like you are one of the few people on here who uses their car hard and has opted for a proper engine & not something taken from a Metro!

 

I have frequent hard use on two 2 litre VX 16 valve engines which are run on Valvolene Synpower 5W50. This includes:

1) Sprints / hills where coolant is up to temperature of 85°C but oil is still around 50°C. Engine run at 8500 rpm whilst in this temperature range.

2) Track days where coolant is up to temperature of 90°C, oil up to a sustained 130°C. Engine run at 5,000 - 8500 rpm all day

3) Stage rallies where coolant is at 95°C, oil at 140°C. Again lots of high rpm periods followed by several minutes idling between stages / road sections.

 

I generally change the oil once a year. One of the cars does about 3,000 road miles a year & also has hydraulic tappets. Neither of the cars run oil coolers. One of them is dry sumped. One of them has solid followers

 

I've not had an engine let go yet. I've had both in bits for inspection during 6 years of use. I've just got one of them in bits for an upgrade at the moment (steel rods & head porting) and the big end shells / cam lobes etc are showing minimal wear. This engine has been together for 3 seasons of motorsport. I will continue to use this oil as I've no reason to change.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Not sure if oilman can confirm that Valvolene Synpower 5W50 is a true synthetic or not?

 

Interesting thread.

[YW Sin]

WOW, oilman......

 

you really are a oilman aren't you?

 

 

 

 

[lsd]

Most definately without a doubt i would choose vegteble oil over sunflower oil anytime.

[Peter MarieEa]

Windy1

 

The Valvoline 5W50 product you're using I don't believe is a Group IV but rather a Group III synthetic but even if it was it wouldn't be my preferred choice. The problem is that it has too broad a viscosity range and consiquently is not very shear stable.

Red Line, Amsoil, Silkolene and Motul don't offer it. Red Line in particular wrote an article pointing the problems with that grade.

Mobil 1 do make a 5W50 that's sold in Europe but it's HT/HS viscosity is very low for a so-called 50wt oil; much lower than the 5.11 of their own 15W50 grade.

For track use the following would be a better choice:

Mobil 1 15W50

Silkolene 10W-50 ProS

Silkolene 15W50 ProR

Red-Line 10W40

Motul 300V 10W40

 

By the way, I have a VX standard tune as well and I'm running Red Line 10W30 which I'm very pleased with including a recent track day. Before the track day I wrote Red Line to get an opinion on whether their 10W40 grade would be a better choice.

They assured me that the heavier grade would not be necessary usince the HT/HS was very high unless the ambient temp' .got over 100degF.

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

Quick7

[oilman]

Windy1.

 

I would agree with Peters comments concerning viscosity.

 

5w-50 if not a "true" ester/pao synthetic covers too broader viscosity range and needs buckets of Vi improver to "prop it up" which as a consquence makes it prone to "shearing down".

 

I would look for a good quality "true" ester/pao based synthetic which gives good thermal stability and will not shear with high temperatures.

 

You could consider a few and even 5w-40 as long as it's a good one.

 

Personally I would recommend Silkolene PRO S 5w-40 or 10w-50 which will operate well between 90 to 110 degC and for prolonged periods at 130 degC.

 

PRO R 15w-50 although a possibility is quite an extreme oil and not so good for winter use.

 

Whatever you use, ensure it's the real thing and not a pretend synthetic.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

PS. You can always email or call me to discuss.

 

sales@opieoils.co.uk

[windy1]

So in summary even though I'm using an oil that is fine for engine longevity & durability, you'd still recommend changing to a different brand?

 

 

 

 

[Peter MarieEa]

Windy1

 

 

 

The conclusion is that it is NOT fine for longevity and durability.

Valvoline SynPower on this side of the pond is a Group III oil; not a true synthetic. I can't pull a technically data sheet on what is sold in UK but I suspect it is the same.

If you're reaching 140degC and using rev's up to 8500 rpm it's not the oil I'd choose if it were my car, but I'm open minded. Why don't you contact Valvolene try and get their tech' sheet for your oil and post it here. If you can't get the info' why would you want to continue using the product?

 

Quick7

[Peter MarieEa]

Oilman

 

Is the ester content of Silkolene's PRO-S oils a secret?

Both Paul Wiley and myself have asked about it.

What say you?

 

Peter

 

Quick7

[oilman]

Peter,

 

All oil Companies precise formulations are indeed "top secret", try getting details of how Magnatec is made up and you'll hit a wall of silence.

 

Without breaching confidentiality, I can say that the average ester content of an oil is less than 10% generally with some as low as a couple of % to claim that it's ester based.

 

Silkolene's PRO S and PRO R oils are more than 20%

 

Not being intentionally evasive but hope you understand.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

sales@opieoils.co.uk

[Rob Walker]

Where are you based in the South West Oilman ?

[oilman]

Cornwall, Redruth to be precise. Can courrier UK Mainland though.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

sales@opieoils.co.uk