Phil Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Nicely explained Pete. even in wormer tempretures/climates a 15w is still going to cause more work for the battery etc and increase engine start up wear. Consider this, the baterry for most modern cars running x/flows or K series engines all take a 44ah and upwards and all our cars take a motorcycle battery of around 23ah to 30ah in power, more work for a weaker battery, you look after your hart with the food you eat so why not your engine with the oil it takes. A 15w grade is out of date realy, it was the best grade at a sensible price at the time of manufature, ie the late 70,s. X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990 ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Ken, Are you looking for Esters in the oil or as the base stock as as far as I am aware Motul synergie contains esters, Amsoil up to 25%, Magnatec and Royal Purple should be an ester based oil like Redline which is approx 55%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Sailor Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I'm trying to follow the advice from Simon and the two Peters and use an oil in a viscosity range that's suitable for the CrossFlow and uses a synthetic base stock, PAO / Ester. Viscosity ranges available in the US seem to be different than in the UK and Europe and the number of companies selling oil with synthetic basestocks is also limited. Motul, for example, is imported; Magnatec doesn't exist here and I'm not familier with Royal Purple. Of the oils I've found that are okay for viscosity and synthetic base stock, all except Redline are mail order only. Redline is available OTC at Autozone stores (Halford equivalent). Ken Sailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Besides the "inaccurate" advertising of oil as "Fully Synthetic" when it's synthesised petroleum based - It'd be interesting to discover whether there's THAT much practical difference from the synthetic/ester base stock "True" synthetic oil. Pricing the Silkolene recommended, there's no significant price difference from Halford's 5W-40 - so I intend to use it from the next oil change, but for road use in what Peter C accurately describes as a Mini Metro engine, one does wonder 😬 BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Sailor Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I think Simon/Oilman gives some pretty good reasons on page 7 of this thread to use a 'real' synthetic base stock instead of a petroleum based one. Ken Sailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Ken, Just been released under start up not Magnatec http://www.castercomm.com/press.cfm?id=79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I think Simon/Oilman gives some pretty good reasons on page 7 of this thread to use a 'real' synthetic base stock instead of a petroleum based one. Simon/Oilman certainly has explained the pecking order in oils, but any ACEA A3/B3 will be enough to keep your normal family car running trouble-free throughout its warranty period (at least) with normal service intervals. (I'm ignoring the new breed of engines that use lower viscosities and have their own ACEA classification). A3/B3 requires oils to stay in their viscosity grade, in use. This is a tested characteristic of the oil. Both Simon and I agree that we don't know how well that particular test relates to use in service for thousands of miles; the ACEA standard is good enough for all the European car manufacturers though. There are plenty of Class III A3/B3 oils. If a PAO/Ester oil does it better than a Class III oil, then you can probably run a PAO/Ester for 20,000 miles, no problem - doesn't make much sense if you change your oil every 3000 miles. However, if you can find a PAO/Ester for not much more money than anyone else's Class III then why wouldn't you choose the PAO/Ester? One more thing... ... has anybody read the bit in the owners manual where it describes arduous duty - usually requiring oil changes at half the normal interval. It seems that arduous duty involves prolonged motorway driving and short distance town driving. I think that pretty much covers all modern driving, so perhaps all cars should have their oil change intervals halved - it make a good argument for negotiating a lower price when buying an ex-lease car: - "i'll have that for 2 grand cheaper because it hasn't been maintained properly" - "But it has a full service record" - "Aha! But every day of its life has been arduous duty and you only followed the routine maintenance schedule. 2 grand off please." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Interesting quote as fairly new in US Regarding the "Magnatec" concept, I was at a dinner for the opeing of an Australian re-refining operation...they take old industrial oils, refine them, and make new oils out of them. Their chemist is an ex Castrol bloke who worked with Magnatec, and he confirmed that they were "polar" molecules that clung to the metal surfaces improving start-up wear. He claimed that when they tested the 10w-40 Magnatec against their "reference oil" (Mobil 1 5W-50), the magnatec made some eyese open. Apparently the test procedure was to run reference oil, flushing oil, test oil, flushing oil, and reference oil, so that the trial oil was bracketted by a known quantity. He stated that with the residual of the Magnatec, both the M1 and the flushing oils performed better after the magnatec had been run. I don't see why he had anything to prove, seeing as he was now working for someone else, with greater freedom in what he produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Although not in favour of extended drain if you intend to keep the car for some time, the following does support Peter's comment re the ability of Mobil in these circumstances http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Sailor Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Interesting about the Castrol GTX Startup. They don't specificly say what their base stock is though. Their viscosity grades are fairly limited at 5W30, 10W30 and 10W40. Maybe they'll have more later on. Also interesting that everyone compares themselves to Mobil 1. In the States Mobil 1 is available in 0W30, 0W40, 5W30, 10W30 and 15W50. A good range and, as they mention, available in Wallmart. I intend to keep my Seven untill I can no longer hold the steering wheel 'in my cold dead hand' so I want it to last. Besides, the price differences between oils is very slight unless you're going for the $19.99 special at 'Lube City' so why not, as Peter C. suggests, go for the best? For my US located CrossFlow that looks like 0W40 Mobile 1 or 5W40 Redline. Both easy to obtain without having to deal with mail order. Ken Sailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter MarieEa Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Hi Ken, I think the Red Line choice is a good one. The price (it's made in California) of the stuff is not too bad considering what it costs in the UK. I just bought it on sale up here for $7.60 US per US qt. which isn't that much more than Mobil I for my HPC. A couple of points about Red Line. On their current website they make a point of stating their oil is 100% "superior" poly ester- based and not an ester fortified PAO; hence a very low friction level and therefore more power. I usually take those kind of claims with the proverbial grain of salt. But I can tell you my car feels more powerful.In fact on a blat yesterday I hit 130mph which I have never achieved before. Best prior was 125mph and it has been like hitting an aerodynamic wall; so maybe their is something to their claims. Quick7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Gimme a break Peter 😬 the extra bhp required to allow 130 mph instead of 125 mph is far greater than could be gained from different engine oil. Maybe you had a tailwind 😬 I feel this is all starting to become a tad evangelical I intend to start using Silkolene 5W-40 from my next oil change - I figure it can't do any harm, it's the same price as what I use now, but I'll still change it at 6000 miles. I've been very interested in all the information and technical detail in these oil threads, BUT after 24000 miles in the first 18 months on my 1.8 K-Series all the shiny bits I can see inside my engine look just fine. I started off using GTX and did three oil changes in the first 1500 miles to get all the carp out of the engine. I then changed to Halford's 5W-40 "Fully" Synthetic, which I knew to be petroleum based - I used to think all synthetic oil was. I change the oil and filter every 6000 miles. Oil has three functions - lubricate, cool and clean. My oil after 6000 miles is dirty - GOOD I think. Lets get all that carp out of there and bung in some fresh. The viscosity staying as advertised and the molecules sticking to the metal and the short chain OAP's called Ester - (How come they all have the same name?) are all very nice ... BUT How much worse is the petroleum based synthetic oil than the synthetic base stock oil - FROM AN EVERY DAY, PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW? I suspect, using a popular US term, Diddly. I've saved and printed-off all the details, but if the synthetic base stock oil suspends the contaminants better and the viscosity range stays as advertised - if you leave it in the engine longer, it will pick up more contamination - Ugh. The film thickness will be the same - AND more contaminant ... Hmmmm Food for thought 😬 BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Tony, I agree with your last comment. Most oils as long as the meet the standards are okay for a tin-top and wear will be minimal. How many of us have had to have new rings, or bearings in their tin top these days, very few I would venture. I drove my last car for 280,000 miles with oil changes every 6000 miles and never used a high spec oil. When I sold it it did not smoke and I never needed to top it up between services every 5 weeks or so, many other people find the same. My current car a Vectra in theory has 20,000 mile service intervals with long drain oil. I do not let it run that far and change the oil at 10k. Reason is experience has told me that other parts of the car need attention or checking long before 20k (it gets through suspension and ARB bushes with regular monotony) and while I am at it it is only a few minutes and a tenner to change the oil, so I do it anyway, this engine is over 100k already and shows no sign of wear. A seven though is more extreme and I do pay more careful attention to what oil I put in it as an engine like mine would cost £7k to replace and it has a hard life with regular extensions above 9000 revs. So far it has done several seasons of motorsport without a rebuild. I treat the oil in this engine like an insurance policy that must be paid every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter MarieEa Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Tony C. I kid you not, 130mph. One thing I didn't say was that I'm trying Red Line's 10w-30 verses the 5w-50 Group III I drained out of the sump. It's an experiment. Red Line claim that their 10w-30 oil has a film strength 25% greater than a mineral 10w-40 so the lubrication should still be more than adequate with the lighter viscosity. I'm also curious what affect this will have on my hydrallic tappets and so far they have been quite. Ken, You may want to consider Red Line's 10w-40 instead of the 5w-40. You mentioned you always start your cross-flow when the ambient temp' is atleast room temperature so you don't need the 5w oil. The 10w-40 will have a Kinematic viscosity close to the 5w-40 at that temp' and it will have have less VI improvers hence it should be a somewhat better choice in your application. If you e-mailed Red Lines I'm sure they would agree. Regards, Peter Quick7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Sailor Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Good suggestion Peter. When do we all recieve our oil engineering degree? Ken Sailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain chaos Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 I was following this thread but, a trip to the Ring and 10 pages later it's all got beyond me. Without any biases, would/could someone give me a couple of oils to chose from that would be ideal for my tuned Vx which always warmed up properly and mainly does track/ring work. I was using Mobil 1 15-50. The engine does get a refresh every 7/8K. With that in mind should I even be worrying Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Mobil is a PAO based, nevertheless, esters are nearly always used in combination with PAOs in full synthetic motor oils in order to balance the effect on seals, solubilize additives, reduce volatility, and improve energy efficiency through higher lubricity. The percentage of ester used in motor oils can vary anywhere from 5 to 25% depending upon the desired properties and the type of ester employed. Redline use poly ester as a base stock and the major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 30 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -54?C, pump readily at -40?C, and withstand sump temperature approaching 200?C with drain intervals measured in years. Only polyol esters have been found to satisfy this demanding application. Redline indicate up to 4% more power with race oil - 125 to 130 would require an additional 15bhp at fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 It might be interesting to realise that gas turbine engine oil does not suffer reciprocating loads - just rotation. There's a bit of churning going-on in the gearbox, but that's about it. Oil formulated for gas turbine engines and oil for use in a piston engine is not a "good" comparison IMHO. Sure it must retain its properties under a wide heat range. but ....... I've been carefully re-reading these oil threads - I'm not suggesting what has been written is not true, but have noticed there's very little, if any, direct comparative test results between petroleum based synthetic and pure synthetic. The bit about a motor bike engine was comparing the viscosity of pure synthetic oil, by my reading. Am I being cynical ? BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Tony, For Car use the oils need blending (diluting the benefits of a poly ester) and at its very difficult to find a clear winner between Mobil Redline Amsoil. A few pics of sludge from Mineral and a product used in US to clean up http://www.rms13.com/imgal/ As far as I know Petroleum based snyths do not need to use esters as part of package but Magnatec does include esters, so its not impossible that they are part of blend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 @ Ken [Q]Pierre the Motul 300V that I found on their US/Canada web site is a racing oil. Not what I want for my X-Flow [/Q] For 4 to 5 track days /Y and 40 km / week end, Motul just recommended to me to change oil every year. So, despite it is a racing oil, it is quite usable on such basis. Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Stop, GO back and read the thread again, start up at room temp so do I need a cheaper oil bollocks, you have all missed the piont. If you did two oil changes a year yourself you would save two lots of garage fees and this pays for the oil. A Caterham is less of a car for more money ie average £15,000 gets you a lot of saloon and a Caterham is a few tubes etc, so why start skimmping on the oil when the difference is only say within £10, ask for a box of four when buying and try for a little discount and four filters, save you lots of trips and less carriage etc, it then becomes cheap motoring again with simple thought. X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990 ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Sailor Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Who's looking for cheaper oil? I think most of us are looking for the 'right' oil for how each of us uses our Sevens. For myself, this has been a real learning experience. Before these posts I didn't know that US synthetics weren't always synthetic nor did I know exactly why synthetics were better than mineral based oils or fully understand all the reasoning behind the various viscosity ranges. You're right about saving garage fees. The Seven can be an inexpensive car to run if you do as much of the servicing yourself as you can. Changing oil is a very simple, though messy, job. Judging by the Tech section of BlatChat, a lot of owners seem to be doing their own work and, if not, they're trying hard to understand what needs to be done before taking their Sevens to someone else. 3,000 miles or six months for the oil/filter changes I do myself. Ditto for the tin tops as well. Oil is cheap insurance. I change anti-freeze once a year and do other servicing more often then really necessary too. Again, cheap insurence and besides, it's part of the fun of having a Seven. Ken Sailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Hi Ken, I unfortunately work in retail and I am constantly supprised by the amount of people who will go everywhere to check prices on oil, will not accept any help or advice [cannot blame them as most retailers haven't a clue] and then buy the wrong oil but not the filter as it is 50p cheaper elsewhere for example, none of them using there brains and taking into account the cost of travel from shop to shop plus the rubbish advertising on the containers. I was just saying that some people now have to much info and are using it to look for a range of correct oils and are now back to square one finding the best price. Simply find the oil you like, make sure it is of the quality required, ask for discount for a box of four, if successful great, see if you can get the filters at the same time, economical purchase, great deal, job done. Example, need a thingy from Caterham, you pay postage anyway, why not buy four filters, this maybe telling a lot of people how to suck eggs but we all do this in some way or another. someone on here said a 0w would be a waist of time as he/she starts the car are room temp and they have missed the point of the conversation. That is why I suggested reading the thread again. X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990 ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Anyone know if the Valvoline Synpower 5W50 is a true fully synthetic. It retails for under £20 for 4 Liters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wiley Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Rob, Could be either so you could check MSDS. Paul A few base oils and additives with CAS numbers and descriptions: Mineral Paraffininc Base Oil - 64742-54-7; VI of +94 to 120, any group. Mineral Naphthenic Base Oil - 64741-96-4; VI of -15, any group. Mineral Aromatic Base Oil - 64742-03-7; VI of -185, any group. Hydrotreated paraffininc, heavy - 64742-52-5 Hydrotreated paraffinic, light - 64742-53-6 PAO's: 68649-12-7, 68037-01-4, 163149-29-9, 151006-63-2, 151006-62-1, 151006-60-9. VII's of +155 or greater. Diester - 28472-97-1; VII's average +170. VII Copolymers - 127883-08-3 Additives: ZDDP Type Adds: 68649-42-3, XXXXX-46-6. Calcium Sulfonates: 61789-86-4 Moly Dithiophosphate - 68958-92-7 or 68958-92-9 Moly Disulfide Powders - 1317-33-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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