What is the best type of oil?

[Grim Reaper]

Thank You!

[Petrolhead]

So, have you made your choice

 

PS How u keeping

 

Now with SL No 148

[captain chaos]

Thanks to Oilman and Peter for their help

[YellowSeven]

Ditto 😬

[Grim Reaper]

Peter,

No, no choice made as yet, waiting to see what Comma have to say about their basestocks but if they are not true synthetics, or if they refuse to say what they are, I will probably switch to the Silkolene Pro S 5W-40 and change my filter more often than the oil.

Not seen much action in the past few weeks, the rain has put paid to that. Should be getting down to the York meet next week and up to Durham at the end of the month.

Looking for a thinner front anti roll bar as well.

Dave.

[Phil]

Oilman, sorry but I have to disagree with you on one point you made regarding the Crosflow engine.

I agree that an older engine from the 1960s, 70s,80s with old engineering and poorer quality materials available and the oil available at the time would not bennifit from a jump to a more modern oil as his may clean the engine to much causing leaks as the engine you say relies upon the dead oil to help seal it. Most of the X/flow engines used by Caterham owners are very low milage and most of the time modern versions of the engine with modern engineering skills applied with modern materials like improved metals and different oil seals and gaskets not requiring extra sealing, older stlyle oils in this case woould be detramentle to its performanc.

Example of this is the Ford OHC engine designed, built and used in the 60s onwards, the oil available at the time was generaly a 20w50 mineral base and the engines were expeced to do less than 100 thousand miles, in 1983 this engine was improved with beter crankshaft and bearings, pistons and rings etc in conjunction with the better oils availabl and now this engine had nearer 200 thousand mile life span.

Surely the X/flow engines we use are not made with old engineering standards and materials and surely the would suffer from outdated 20w/50 technolodgy which has only been graded API SF as ther is no point in makin it better when no longer required by modern machinery.

Oilman, thanks for your time on this subject, brillaint job and well explained, I have learnt a lot, enjoy your holliday.

 

X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990

ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR

[oilman]

I certainly won't disagree with that, you have more intimate knowledge of the engines than I will ever have, I'm just a lowly and humble Oilman.

 

I would agree that that particular engine would definately benefit from a proper synthetic oil, don't go too thin though. 10w or 15w may work better for you.

 

Take a look at Silkolene PRO S and PRO R (ester/pao) oils here:

 

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/lubricants.htm

 

Cheers and thanks for the info.

 

Simon

 

 

sales@opieoils.co.uk

[Jason Plato]

How about some purchase discounts for members Mr Oilman ??

 

could work well for everyone ?

 

 

dave

 

 

 

[oilman]

Unless the Committee is reading these threads which may be the case, I'll need to contact the Club concerning joining our "Clubs Oil Scheme" first, that way it can be made official for both parties and you can all benefit.

 

Our prices are very competitive and we use AMTRAK overnight for all UK deliveries.

 

If I don't hear from the Committee in the meantime, I'll contact the Club Secretary on my return from holiday.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

sales@opieoils.co.uk

[Peter Carmichael]

Simon,

 

I am intrigued enough to ask...

 

The warnign often comes out that you shouldn't use a thin oil on an older engine. I know many reasons why this might be the case.

 

You have then given the answer that a 10W or 15W might be suitable. I struggle to understand that. Surely the hot rating is more relevant than the cold rating? I'll rationalise that statement...

 

We all know that the oil has an operating temperature. We all don't give it the beans until our oil is up to temperature. Despite being multigrades, as you have pointed out, the viscosity is still massively higher at 0 degC and 40 degC than at a usual operating temperature in the 90-110 degC range. So lets assume that 14-20cSt is the right viscosity for our old engine (bold assumption, but any number will do). Any of our SAE 40/50 hot grades will be in the ballpark at 100 degC. At any colder temp they will be thicker, so far from being "thin oils", they are thick oils. At temps greater than 100degC, the oil with the highest viscosity index will stay thicker - that will be the 0W or 5W synthetic rather than the 10W/15W oil.

 

So surely there is a good argument is for using 0W40 in your old engine.

 

A second consideration could be that the surface roughness of the bearings has deteriorated such that a thicker film needs to be established. In this case a 5W50 would be better than a 15W50.

[Peter MarieEa]

I don't mean to speak for Simon, but I think Peter's question has been addressed in Simon's discussion on VI improvers.

Yes, 5w-50 is better than 15w- 50 when new but what is the Kinematic viscosity @ 100C after some hard high temp' use? Would the 5w-50 hold up as well? If it does then to my way of thinking the 15w-50 would have to be considered obsolete or priced lower.

 

Quick7

[Peter MarieEa]

One question I have for Simon if he hasn't begun his holidays yet is whether it is necessary to change the oil annually in a little used car like the Caterham.

If one is using a quality PAO/Ester synthetic motor oil and only racking up 1000 to 3000 miles per year, even including some track days, why should an under used, expensive oil be changed?

Would there be a problem in waiting 2 or 3 years and changing at 6000 miles which is still not alot of mileage?

While this is general question, my car has a Vauxhall 2 litre on Carbs'.

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

 

Quick7

[Alex Wong1697456877]

oil pressure is measured as resistance not flow and flow is more important!

---

 

Could one argue that the oil that gave you the lowest pressure (and therefore the highest flow) was therefore the best one then?

[oilman]

Alex,

 

Not quite, you need to maintain a balance between oil pressure and flow.

 

Go too thin and your not going to get pressure.

 

Go too thick and your not going to get flow.

 

Draw a line down the middle of this balance, say for exsample this is the best place to be. There are then pros and cons of stepping on either side of that line ie going thinner or thicker.

 

Cheers

 

Guy(Simons Brother).

[Phil]

Ok, from what has been advised I see it that my low milage X/flow which has always used 10w/40 semi until I purchased it, now runs on a 5w/40 fully synth [hydrocracked style I asume because of the price] that I should stick to this grade but find a true synthetic of API SL, A5 spec.

A 2ltr vauxhaul engine most bookes state a 10w/40 semi as standard so a 5w/40 or a 0w/40 rue FS would be best.

A K ser engine would benifit from a 10w/40 semi upwards to a true FS 10w/40 a 5w/40, 0w/40 or even under race conditions a 5w/50 FS.

A 15w grade true synth or not still being a hard oil to push in modern engines upon start up.

 

What I liked was the comment by I think it was oilman, he said he is an "OIL MAN" not a mechanic, no offence to mechanics who do a great job but they are not normally educated in the art of oil and if you did a simple test by asking several mechanics what oil should you use and what do you think of snthetics you will get a lot of the usual uneducated answers you now know are wrong. Again, forget th usual sales crap on the pack like rally,moto sport, hyped grade, and look at the specs, look at the manufactures recommended spec and stick to that or better.

 

X/FLOW 1700 DD 1990

ROAD USE ONLY..SO FAR

[Peter MarieEa]

Captain Chaos and Phil

 

In the Caterham handbook to my '94 VX HPC the recommended engine oil is 5w-50 for the Vauxhall application in the Caterham. Keep in mind the VX has a shortened sump and consiquently higher oil level relative to the crankshaft. Windage is more of a problem in the Caterham than in it's tintop origins.

I've not found a 40 wt oil that didn't cause noisey hydraulic tappets when the engine was good and hot.

 

Phil, good point about mechanics; and they all have strong opinions about motor oil, spreading disinformation.

 

Quick7

[Ken Sailor]

Why is life so complicated?

 

Following along from what Simon said about the Mobil 1/Castrol lawsuit in the US and US oil manufacturers now able to call their oil ‘synthetic’, even though it has a mineral oil base, I went to the web sites of some of the companies that supply oil in the US. I looked at Castrol Syntec, Valvoline SynPower, Pennzoil Synthetic, Quaker State, Mobile 1, Amsoil and Silkolene.

 

Pretty cagey people, these oil companies. The words fully synthetic are used a lot but for most of them I was unable to determine what their base stock was. Maybe I missed it.

Mobile 1 does say it’s made of “a blend of ultra high performance synthetic base stocks” so I guess that counts.

I didn’t look very hard at the Silkolene web site assuming from what Simon has said that Silkolene uses a true synthetic base stock in the US as well as the UK.

Amsoil says they use a PAO synthetic base stock. Wow, honesty! Their web site has an interesting side by side comparison test of their oil alongside other companies oil. Of course they come out best.

 

Viscosity available in the US:

Mobile 1 sells 0W30, 0W40, 5W30, 10W30, 15W50.

Silkolene sells 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 20W50.

Amsoil sells 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 20W50.

 

So where does that leave the US X-Flow owners, especially me with my 1979 X-Flow that was rebuilt about 5000 miles ago? I don’t think that the comments about synthetics loosening up the sludge apply because of the rebuild. Some of that mileage was in the UK and I used Castrol GTX Magnatec, 15W40, that claimed to be synthetic and formulated for older engines. In the US it’s been Castrol Syntec, 10W40, which may or may not be a ‘real’ synthetic. (until these postings – who knew?) I should be okay either switching to a real, PAO basestock, synthetic like the Mobile 1 15W50 or with the Syntec, providing I change the oil and filter frequently based on time, use and mileage factors, (currently 3,000 miles or 6 months) but anyone with an engine that’s been run on non-PAO synthetic for any length of time may have a problem. Castrol does sell a Syntec Blend that is a mixture of non-synthetic oil and whatever Castrol considers synthetic here in the States. That might be a way to use some synthetic while keeping the sludge in place.

 

Based on what Simon has said ( “Older engines will benefit from synthetics if they are in good condition and you stick to "thicker" viscosity’s as these were generally specified back in the 70's. By this I mean the likes of 10W50 or 15W50 or even in some cases 20W50 although this is going to be a mineral oil which is OK so long as you do regular changes” ) viscosity seems to be the real issue for X-Flows. I’m assuming that the reason for the thicker viscosity has to do with the greater bearing, etc., clearances the X-Flows have. (I have Haynes manuals for some of the cars the X-Flow engine was originally in and the oil viscosity recommended varies from 10W30 to 10W40 to 10W50. You pays your money and ……..)

 

Peter MarieEa asked about the frequency of oil changes. Isn’t there some condensation build-up inside the engine along with various acids? The manual for my tin top says to change the engine oil every 7,500 miles or 6 months. Is there another reason besides water and acid build-up in the oil for the 6 month interval?

 

Aside from driving style and assuming frequent tune ups, I would think that oil, oil filter, air filter and anti-freeze are the most critical factors affecting engine performance and life.

 

 

 

 

 

Ken Sailor

[Weirdy]

I did use halfruads oil, to thin and gave tha tapity noise in the egine, since then I have tried many types but have found 5 - 40 Mobil oil very good, but nothing is as good as the 0 -50 caterham/Coma stuff in Minty, its just expensive compared to others.....

[Peter Carmichael]

Ken,

 

You are making things a bit too complicated.

 

Your old design of engine needs a thicker oil than a modern engine ONLY at running temperatures. That will be an SAE 50 grade. Your engine will benefit from a an appropriate thickness oil at startup. A 15W is the worst you should contemplate. The more you head down the 10W, 5W, 0W path while using an oil with a good base stock the better.

 

...or putting it another way...

 

You listed 10W50, 15W50, 20W50 as increasing "thicknesses" of oil. This is only true at colder temperatures (no engine, not even a crossflow benefits from running on treacle at cold startup). When they are all warmed up, they are all SAE 50 viscocity (at 100degC). Of those three, the 10W50 will be the closest to being the right viscosity at lower temperatures.

 

... so forget about prehistoric mineral oil. Look at the back of the pack and read the specs. Don't know if the labelling in the States will include ACEA ratings, but it will certainly have API. Look for an API-SJ rating.

 

Sahf London;

every 1st Wednesday from 19:30 at The Duck just around the corner from Clapham Junction station

[Ken Sailor]

Thanks Peter. That helps and explains the importance of the SAE 50 grade. There's a problem at the other end of the grading. The three oils I mentioned above, Mobile 1, Amsoil, and Silkolene are the only genuine synthetics I've found available in the US and the best I can do is 15W50.

Castrol Syntec which I don't think is a 'real' synthetic since the don't say what their base stock is does make a 5W50.

My Seven is kept in a garage that's at the same temp. as the rest of the house and the engine block never gets dead cold so I'm assuming that 15W50 should be okay.

I checked some old oil containers in the garage (Pack rat syndrome) and both Mobile 1 and Castrol Syntec (fake synthetic ?) say they meet API SJ. I was surprised that Castrol's Syntec Blend which they clearly state is mineral oil based also meets API SJ.

 

Ken Sailor

[Peter MarieEa]

Hi Ken,

 

Here in North America most of the so-called synthetics use a Group III base stock; ie., a super refined mineral oil with no PAO (Group IV) or Esters (Group V). Castrol is the worst offender IMO since they started the whole controverse.

I'm not a great fan of most 5w-50 motor oils on the market here in N.Amer' because they are almost universally Group III oils, and that included Castrol Syntec. The problem is it's too wide a viscosity range and they stay in grade. That in conjunction with their inherently lower film strength compared to a true synthetic makes them a poor choice.

Mobil 1's 15w-50 is probabily the least expensive PAO based synthetic you'll find on this side of the pond and I'd recommend it for you crossflow besides Roger King recommends it for your engine. Mobil 1 do make a 5w-50 oil but for some reason it is only available in Europe.

Other more expensive oil you could consider are Silkolene that you mentioned, Motul and Redline. These oils have an Ester component which Simon described the advantages of; ie., their polar nature which is particuarily good in a Caterham cos of their infrequent use . I'm refering to the additional protection afforded when starting an engine that hasn't been run for a few weeks or months. As you know most engine wear occurs on startup anyway.

 

Peter

 

Quick7

[Ken Sailor]

Thanks Peter. I'll do some research on Motul and Redline tomorrow and report back.

This has been a tremendous learning experience so far. It's really the best part of BlatChat and the club.

 

Ken Sailor

[Pierre Gillet]

I am running a 5W40 Motul 300V Power on my 1.6 K, fully synthetic ester-based . Sold @ 29 €/2 liters by Demon Tweeks, so less expensive than in France ! Combined with the Appolo and Laminova systems, it apparently solved the problems of lubrification on tracks of my Seven. And also it is environmentally friendly!

 

Pierre

[Scared Was The Sheep]

Oz7

 

Sorry for the slow reply, I've been away for a few days. I picked it up at the Asda round the corenr, I guess if that one sells it others probably will aswell.

 

Nick

[Ken Sailor]

Pierre the Motul 300V that I found on their US/Canada web site is a racing oil. Not what I want for my X-Flow.

 

Peter - both Motul and Redline make 5W40 and 15W50 and, as you noted, both are Ester based.

 

I would think, given the way the Seven is used and looking back at Simon's and Peter Carmichael's posts, that the 5W40 with its better protection at start up, is a better chice than the 15W50.

 

Ken Sailor