oldbutnotslow Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Went to a Track Day yesterday and after 2 sessions the engine refused to start on the starter. Just a click ( is this the infamous K click?) The car started and ran fine all day on a bump start apart from a couple of pops that seemed to come from the inlet (air cleaner) in the last session of the afternoon. Its not the first time its refused to start on the starter but repeated pressing of the button on the immobiliser fob and it started. Checked out the battery today 12.76v across the terminals and 1270 on the hydrometer on all cells. That to me is a full charge. Took the battery off (standard Banner) and cleaned the terminals and the leads. Still no joy. I’ve just taken the starter off and cleaned the terminals dismantled the starter and cleaned and lubricated the internals, and the earth strap to the neg on the battery will see tomorrow if any joy. I always use the battery isolation switch when stopped. Could this have any effect? Has any one any ideas??? Grant 🤔 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Yes - sounds like the problem that cropped up a week ago when I changed my exhaust from 4-1 internal collector to 4-1 competition (external collector). I've just fixed it... ..here... A quick (1 hour) service of the solenoid followed by fitment of a reflective heat-shield seems to have done the trick - but I only did it yesterday, so have only one heavy blat under my belt since then. Ah, but you've already serviced the solenoid... Hmm... Over the last weekend, I was regularly getting hot starting problems, so I'm reasonably confident that I'm now OK. Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Edited by - Myles on 28 May 2004 21:03:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Its not the first time its refused to start on the starter but repeated pressing of the button on the immobiliser fob and it started. Well - I assume you *do* know that it takes four presses on either button to resync the fob and immobiliser and unlock it after turning the FIA switch off...? Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted May 28, 2004 Author Share Posted May 28, 2004 Hi Myles 4 what!!!! No I didnt. Bugger!, dont say its just been that?!!! By the way the site is very good. How would the engine start on a bump start then? If I just turn the ign off I still get a buzzing sound. Thats why Ive been using the master switch. Where can I get the heat blanket from then? 😳 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Grant - if it had been *just* the resync of the immobiliser and keyfob (assuming it is the 'standard' Rover two-key system), then you would have heard a lot of tick-tock clicking from relays when you turned the ignition on (the relays trying to activate the horn as an alarm). I assume that you're only having trouble with hot-starts - if this is the case, then it's almost certainly something to do with the starter/solenoid/main wiring rather than the immobiliser. On last w/e's 1000mile BitB tour of the Scottish borders, I required several bump-starts in petrol stations etc. I got the heat-shield from Demon Tweaks - it is a 'Cool It - Thermotec' "Starter Heat Shield" (part no. 14150 - £30.44+VAT but less discount if you are a club member and talk to Dave Kimberley). You can get it from other sources, but the price doesn't seem to vary much. Where does your buzzing sound come from when you switch off? It could be anything from the IACV in the inlet manifold to some of the relays connected to the hazard warning switch (but this is more of a random 'geiger counter' ticking rather than a buzz...) Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted May 29, 2004 Author Share Posted May 29, 2004 Hi Myles, The SM is back together after the strip clean & lubricate. Reset the immobiliser as per instructions and away 1st time. 😬 So far so good. The cars on the trailer in the garage so I won’t get a chance for a hot restart until next Thursdays track day at Cadwell. I’ve found the blanket on the DT site. Thanks. I will probably buy it just as a precautionary measure but it won’t be until after Thursday. I have an evening track session booked at Bedford AD on the 16th so plenty of time before then. The noise is more like a high-pitched constant sound. Not very loud. It does seem to come from the area of the inlet, however could it be to do with the immobiliser as it seems to stop just about when the auto set feature should activate, after a couple of minutes of the ign being switched off? 🤔 Thanks for your help. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Re-sync isn't always nec. Depends on how your bat master switch was wired. Mine doesn't require it because, I think, it has a low current feed always keeping the ECU alive. Mind you, on the occasions I've removed the battery, it still didn't need a re-sync although I have definitely had to re-sync it on occasions. Can't think what the detail of those occasions were now though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 You've got a different immobiliser though V7 haven't you? (a plug-in-the-dash job rather than the std. Rover key-fob)... ...and the standard Rover job doesn't need a keep-alive - it remembers the last state it was in before losing power and wakes up in the same state Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Edited by - Myles on 29 May 2004 17:38:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Grant The SM is back together after the strip clean & lubricateBy "SM" I take it you mean "Starter Motor". I hope this doesn't sound pedantic but I think you probably mean you stripped down and cleaned the solenoid not the actual starter motor. It just might confuse someone else if they attempt to do it. Hope you don't mind my pointing this out. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted May 29, 2004 Author Share Posted May 29, 2004 Hi Chris No problem. I did infact strip the Starter Motor as well as the solenoid just to check the brushes and bearings and found all to be OK. No tracking etc. or signs of overload. I still feel a bit of a plonker as I think the main problem was not knowing about the alarm reset!!!! ❗ Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted May 30, 2004 Author Share Posted May 30, 2004 Hi Myles, No is the standard Rover system. Ive replaced the key fob battery as a precaution, despite the existing battery giving 3.03v Still starting ok this morning!! 😬 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Update 😳 Well, a couple of us went on a 200-mile blat to Wales and back yesterday - and although V7's SLR had repeated hot-start issues (resolved each time by rocking the car forward and back a couple of times in gear), my 7 always started on the button... ...until we got back to V7s house when I got the dreaded click again... ☹️ So, OK - nyahnyahneenyahnyah to me Again - after V7s experience, I just rocked the car a little in gear - and it fired on the button straight away (i.e. we didn't need to bump-start either car at any point). So... ...the fettle and heat-shield have obviously improved matters (I'd have been clicking at every stop if I hadn't done this work), but it obviously hasn't completely solved the issue. The problem is obviously mechanical in origin (differential expansion rates of the solenoid components perhaps) but being as I've addressed this physically as best I can, I guess I will have to resort to the relay-based electron boost... 🙆🏻 Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Myles - worth wiggling the solenoid post before you do the relay mod . This maybe the problem . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 It seemed fine when I stripped it down a few days ago, but I will check again if/when I do the mod. Thx. Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 No need to rock - just tap solenoid with something while pressing the big red button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 Starting handles rule OK!!! Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Just an idea.... put a second starter button in the engine bay (say on the firewall) so that you can tap and press at the same time. It only treats the symptom, not the illness of course, as the tapping I suspect is jogging the solenoid and allowing the plunger inside to properly close its contacts to the starter motor. The problem remains that of a sticking solenoid. It could be the contacts are very badly pitted and need to be sanded clean. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Edited by - Chris W on 1 Jun 2004 17:48:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 I was going to ask how I was supposed to reach both the solenoid and starter button... ...but the rocking method has the great advantage that you don't have to open the bonnet - and with any luck, you can get one of your x-flow buddies to do the hard work whilst you remain in the car close its contacts to the starter motor. This is the ball-headed end of the plunger, isn't it??? I gave the surface of the plunger a light sand (it had the usual scoring - but I believe this is more likely to be a manufacturing artefact rather than wear - I couldn't see any corresponding marks on the (brass??) lining of the solenoid chamber for instance...) - but not the ball-headed bit (cleaned up where it strikes the end though... Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Myles, Some progress then. Well that’s good news in that its better than before. The contacts are in the black Bakelite end of the solenoid. I may be wrong but to get to these I think you need to take out the two rivets. Chris W may well be able to confirm if this is the case as all things electrical seem well within his compass! At this point I think I would be looking to source a new unit or perhaps you know of a racing starter that would stand up to the heat. I will see how mine goes on the track on Thursday and report back. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hmm - well we had a mini-debate yesterday about competition starters - one suggestion was that they seem to work because few (if any) people have had them on the cars for as many miles as the road ones that they are replacing - i.e. give any starter enough time, and it will have trouble. If you do want to change (and it's not cheap), Brise starters seem popular. Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Myles Grant is correct about the location of the contacts. The "ball-headed" end is the bit that fits over the forked lever and pulls the starting motor gaer into the flywheel. As the plunger goes back the opposite end to the "ball" pushes a rod which closes the contacts. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Aha! OK, thanks. Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbutnotslow Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 Ok it did it again! After two sessions at a very wet Cadwell yesterday if refused to start. Just the usual click. Rocking the car in gear did allow it to start on the starter button. The root cause does seem to be the heat and as Myles has proved, the heat wrap whilst providing some protection, is not in its self the cure. So I believe that I need to treat the problem at source and get the solenoid out of the high temperature area. At one time loads of cars had the solenoid (which is just a big switch after all) fitted separately to the starter. Admittedly that was before pre-engaged starters Has anyone looked into or actually carried out the work of remotely sitting the solenoid to a position away from the heat source to perhaps close to the ECU.? If they have how did they overcome the pre-engaged starter problem? What solenoid did they use? This is all beginning to look like hard work! Should I : - 1 - Just either put up with the current situation or 2 - Buy a new assembly or 3 - Buy a racing starter or 4 – Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Either it's not heat, or my problem is different to yours. Mine sometimes fails first thing in the morning when the car was last driven about 12 hours earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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