Tony Whitley Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 While I wait for the RAC man... K Series but not the usual. Insert immobiliser, throw the switch, remove the immobiliser - the LED goes green but no fuel pump whirr and not much (if any) IACV noise. I turned on the lights and the heater fan - no problem with the battery, checked the ECU fuse (30A), pressed the cut off switch, pulled the connector off the MEMS and the cut off switch. Finally I searched the archive (FYI the word "start" appears in 76 topics, mainly preceeded by "won't"). I'm beginning to wonder how much a nice reliable car would cost - something like an early Elan for example M1 7 SMW 1.8K Mem.No. 10376 Edited by - Tony_Whitley on 25 May 2004 09:28:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy65 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Stick it gear and rock back and forth......if you've checked the ECU fuse, I've heard a sharp tap on the starter solenoid sometimes help, Broom handle apparently!!!. That's all I can think of, Good luck Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 RAC man arrived quite quickly but was unable to solve the problem. He thinks it is two problems * the MFRU - by shorting the connector he got the fuel pump to whirr * the starter (solenoid) - it clunks but shows no sign of even trying to turn (I have the "relay mod" and jump-starting with his battery made no difference) Rather than trailer it home I've left it here in the (secure) office car park and will have a go at it tomorrow. Could it be the immobiliser? I'll search later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 You're having rotten luck, Tony ☹️ Did Mr RAC try the trick where you jump directly from the weedy starter lead (solenoid?) to the beefy live one? That starts my car every time. I need it so often I've got a special lead taped inside the boot ☹️ If the problem is the immobiliser then I think that the Emerald will cure it - I don't even have it enabled on mine. I'm still looking OK for Wednesday evening for a try with the Emerald. If you don't have any luck then I could meet you at your works car park, if it's reasonably local. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Tony IF the 30A ECU fuse (fuse 14) is OK, then I would say it is either the immobiliser or the ECU at fault. The fact that the RAC man got the fuel pump to whirr by shorting out 2 leads on the MFRU does not mean the MFRU is faulty. He was merely bypassing the ECU which switches a ground connection to the fuel pump normally to complete the fuel pump circuit. If the immobiliser is not enabling the ECU, you will get the symptoms you have experienced. Alternatively of course the ECU may be faulty and not enabling itself even though the immobiliser is "saying" go-ahead. Have you checked the fuel pump fuse (fuse 13, 15A)? You would normally only expect to hear IACV noise after switching OFF, not at ignition ON. The ECU resets the IACV after switch off, ready for the next start. You will then hear its movment. (The ECU is actually still active for about 30 secs after switch off). If you were getting fuel pump whirr I would suspect the solenoid, based on the other symtoms, but no fuel pump whirr is indicative, as I have said, of ECU or immobiliser. If you switch the ignition ON more than once repeatedly however, you will not get fuel pump whirr even if everything is OK as the "whirr" is the fuel system pressurising. Once it's pressurised, it will remain so for a short while so further ignition switch-ons don't require the fuel pump to do anything. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Thanks for that Chris. I don't carry the manual with me (though I may start...) so the testing I did was limited. I'll check the fuel pump fuse though as it whirred when the MFRU was shorted. Yes, the IACV noise is when switching off, and it was doing it. I seem to have everything but fuel pump and a connection to the starter motor proper. I'll search for more info on the immobiliser - on the face of it if I'm getting a green light it should be OK. Strangely, I'll reply direct. Thanks all. M1 7 SMW 1.8K Mem.No. 10376 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Tony, sounds like you're not sure if the solenoid is getting power or not - surprising considering the RAC man has been to visit. Why have you ruled out the usual starter motor problem, is it because you've already got the relay in there? - I have had this problem a couple of times even though I have second relay fitted, and if the musings on here are correct about the fuel pump, then I reckon you have the same ole problem. Perhaps you should get a voltage tester & ammeter and use it to find out how much voltage and current you have across the starter motor. If all looks ok here then give it a sharp tap while trying to start it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Charlie, the solenoid is getting power, there's a healthy clunk from it, just that the starter motor doesn't even try to turn. But you're probably right, I seem to have two problems that occurred independently during the day while the car was parked in a nice cool basement. And anyway, the idea of giving it a sharp tap is very appealing. How big a hammer can I use 🤔 After searching here for the last hour or so my hope is that the supply to the MEMS is missing, thus no signal to the MFRU to turn on the pump. Time to drive to work in the tintop (Fiat Coupe. Yay! Let's hear it for reliable Italian electrics ) and try out another theory or two. M1 7 SMW 1.8K Mem.No. 10376 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Tony The fact the solenoid gives a "healthy clunk" does not necessarily mean that it is functioning correctly. The starter motor system circuit on a K is not linked to the ECU. ie: if the solenoid closes the motor will turn. So if the motor doesn't even try to turn, it's probably a solenoid fault. I cleaned up a solenoid last weekend for another club member which also clunked but which didn't start the car. The solenoid consists essentially of 2 distinct operations: 1. operating a lever that engages the starter motor outout gear with the flywheel, and... 2. closing the main solenoid contacts that direct ~300A current to the starter motor windings. The one I fixed at the weekend was clunking and doing 1), but was not doing 2), The cause was a lot of totally dry grease inside that was causing the plunger to stick. Once cleaned up and relubricated, the car started instantly. I would at least clean up the solenoid as a first operation. It's very straightforward and will take about 45 mins including removal and refitting. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I agree with Chris on this. I took out my solenoid and cleaned it up. Was shocked to find some corrosion on the plunger - cleaned up with lots effort and wire wool. It started much much more reliably after that, it has only started failing very occasionally recently, I suspect it wants another clean, but for the moment I just carry a medium sized adjustable spanner in the boot, a light tap with that at the right moment is easily enough to kick it into life and it only happens very rarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I'm suffering from the same symptoms: "click", already done the relay mod. What kind of grease do you use inside the starter? Is copperslip OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Yes Copper-slip is OK or preferably high-temperature Lithium grease (Halfrauds). Just use a very thin smear on the plunger after cleaning it thoroughly of old grease and general dirt. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 I did it last year but maybe the grease wasn't high-enough temperature as it stopped working after a while. When I stripped it down the next time the grease had carbonised so I left it ungreased and it had worked fine since. I also gave the main contact part a liberal spraying with contact cleaner. I think we need to sort out vocubulary: "click" for the relay (modified or in the MFRU) and "clunk" for the solenoid-but-no-starter-motor-contacts 😬 Yes, it looks like I have two problems. At least. I also have doubts about my battery and the starter motor alignment (fouling the block when hot because I still haven't removed enough metal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Tony, if you have a battery master switch check that one of the female spade connectors hasn't fallen off it's male counterpart. I had this a few months ago and it gave exactly the symptoms you are describing. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm pleased to report that the car now starts. I'm less pleased to report that I don't know why it's decided to do so Maybe the BMS was not turned 100% Or it has a loose connection? There was a problem with the solenoid - the plastic around one of the terminals had cracked and the terminal itelf had turned out of position so it wasn't making proper contact. A liberal application of Araldite fixed that after my local starter specialist (Burghfield Starter & Alternator Centre) was not able to come up with a new solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy65 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Well done, now be careful how you tie down the hammer and piece of wood in the boot!!!!!! Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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