ABS on Caterhams?

[Chelspeed]

I'm told that this weeks Autocar says ABS will be compulsory from 1 July '04 (on new cars presumably....)

 

So will Caterham have to fit ABS or is there some block exemption for low volume type approval?

 

Or is it just the normal make it up as they go along Autocar story?

 

With a light car and sticky tyres perhaps they can try and argue it's not feasible to lock the brakes? With the current mix of hugely powerful XR4x4 rears and puny 1960's Herald fronts perhaps ABS wouldn't be a bad idea....

 

[thinfourth]

unless the company produces less then a certain amount of cars per year

 

Blatting round aberdeen wondering wether to buy a jumper or heater

[JAG]

ABS is not mandatory.

 

The EU law makers said "do it voluntarily or we will legislate" hence the VMs have done it without the need for legislation and on their own terms.

 

I would imagine that Caterham will get away without ABS because of the minute quantities (relativeley) that they make per year.

 

I have always thought that a good ABS set-up is about all that I would add to a Caterham - braking system wise at least 😬

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[The Gimp]

would have thought by now that Air bags would have had to be fitted but again, it must be something to do with Low volume production

 

 

but in this nanny state, i can't seeing being long

 

 

Lov Yoo

[Nifty]

What's the point of an airbag in a 7 *confused*

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[SLR No.77]

Sick bag more apropriate 😬

[SvenDriver]

I suppose the air bag is helpful when you flip. It will make a nice popping sound - rather like a giant bubble wrap. 😬

[westy]

The chairman of the Mercedes owners club asked Mercedes to fit ABS to his gulwing.

They said it was impossible, so he did it himself. He was 80 years old!!!

 

For me it's getting on the Gas, when everything you know say's get on the brake!!!

[andy couchman]

I understand that Caterham are developing a low cost anti-locking device that can be retrofitted to any 7.

 

It consists of a small sticker on the dashboard that reads: 'Please do not lock the brakes; this car stops better when you don't.' 😬 😬 😬

 

Andy

[YW Sin]

andy couchman,

 

ABS system that weights, 0.2 grams 😬

[Michael_E]

I think the 0-100-0 times speak volumes.

 

C7 MLE

here

Spouting bollox so that you don't have to, since 1969

[Chelspeed]

Very good point.

 

But in practice can you see Caterham meeting some braindead EU bureacrat and saying look the 100-0 figures show we don't need ABS. And the bureacrat says either, ach you are right ze brakes are fantastic don't change them at all. Or will he say the rules are the rules and you need to fit some incredibly complex expensive system that makes the brakes crap 100% of the time so that if a 100 year old farmer in France stands on the brakes at 130mph on an autobahn covered with burnt out sheep carcasses he won't skid into a school full of 3 year olds....

 

Good job there are small volume rules.

[Steve-B]

Chelspeed 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬

 

😳 All Hail the Small Volume Rule....

 

Steve B

Big Black Beast^3 SV VHPD

USA 2005: How the West Was Driven

[rich_em]

I have just got a load of paperwork from Caterham on my new kit and included with the paperwork is the SVA application form. They include a copy of a completed one to show what answers to put etc (a good idea). I notice that the question "is the vehicle fitted with Anti-lockbraking system" has a tick in the "yes" box. A mistake? Or am i missing something?

 

Edited by - rich_em on 21 Jun 2004 22:25:27

[Graham Sewell]

Just always remember that ABS does not reduce braking distance - it only allows you to steer whilst braking. But with a little experience you can do that with cadence braking or threshold braking. So no, I would not add it to my Caterham, and I am happy that my Honda does not have it either!

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[paul jacobs]

It does allow us to steer, yes, but a turning wheel using maximum retardation and on the point of lockup, will stop in a shorter distance than a locked wheel sliding. The problem with choosing to not have ABS because "we can cadence brake can't we" is that yeh sure, we can all pump the pedal when on a track with time to think and practice each time, I would suggest that in the case of a real emergency, there is no time to think, the driver will just jam the brake pedal hard down, irrespective of what the tyres are doing [ie sliding].

I'm sorry to say, this very episode happend to me a couple of weeks back, having just picked up a French hirecar, and missing a "Give way on the Right" sign. The ABS had a good workout, and was I glad for it!

 

Edited by - Paul Jacobs on 21 Jun 2004 08:47:54

[charlie_pank]

Of course for the average Mundaneo-type car I think ABS is a good idea, but then again you might as well be driving via a soggy-sponge interface, given the amount of feedback you get. I really enjoy the fact that you can feel exactly what the 7 is doing and I think that contributes to the fact that ABS really would be overkill, it's simply not necessary because you know as soon as you lock up. I am of course assuming that the driver knows what to do about it.

 

I'm really glad Caterham and other small car manufacturers can get out of this beurocratic rubbish.

 

-edited to say: Paul, yes you're right there are panic situations and different people react in different ways. In my experience if you slam the brakes on in a real emergency situation, time tends to move quite slowly anyway, and you in fact have quite a lot of 'time' to think, notice what's going on and react appropriately. Whether or not you do so is a different matter. Perhaps if you do not think yourself capable of cadence braking then some driver training is in order?

We should not forget that ABS is not the answer to all accidents, there is still a stopping distance, and if you are inside it, it doesn't matter whether you have ABS, or can cadence brake you will still hit the object you were trying to avoid. Also, one should not assume that in the panic situation where you were "very glad of ABS" that you would have hit the (other vehicle/tree/fluffy kitten/Jocasta on Twinkletoes) had you been in the 7, I would argue (as above) that the driver feedback is so different in the 7 that you probably would have cadence braked (broke?) anyway, and, given the low weight of the car you probably would have stopped in 1/2 the distance.

 

Edited by - charlie_pank on 21 Jun 2004 08:56:06

[Bill Swizz]

The one time I have found ABS can beat a good driver is when you have the two nearside wheels on snow (or something very slippery) and the two off side wheels on dry tarmac. A driver can regulate the braking pressure so as not to lock up any wheels but modern ABS can deal with each wheel separately so that the ones on dry tarmac can still provide full braking power without locking the wheels on the snow.

[Graham Sewell]

If I remember correctly, the quickest way to stop on dry tarmac is to lock up! But it does do nasty things to your tyres. Also, in a Seven, locking one wheel and releasing becomes instinctive in a car that is so responsive - in that way, you are just in the cusp of threshold and cadence braking which is likely to be as rapid a way to slow down as possible.

 

When it comes to numpty braking in Mundano's, they now add extra software that will continue to force the maximum braking effort after reaching a threshold until the brake pedal is almost completely released again. This "emergency brake assist" is because the average driver falsely assumes that the danger is over after they have reduced their speed to a certain degree and then still hits the car in front because they release the brakes. Just a shame that they do not then hook that response into the hazad lights so on goes the emergency brakes, in kicks the ABS and EBA and the hazard lights. Might make someone wake up in a motorway pile up just that fraction of a second earlier to avoid joining the back of the pileup.

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[Frying Pan]

Graham

 

Citroen do exactly this (hazards when ABS is in use) on the C2. BMW also have a two-stage brake light system coming in on the 1-Series (ugly, ugly, ugly) which is brighter when the ABS is applied.

 

ABS is a fantastic device, although many people just do not use it fully, and tend to release the brakes when they feel it pulsing. The best technique for panic stops is to keep it mashed into the carpet.

 

The first Audi quattro had an ABS-disable switch, as in certain road conditions (gravel, fresh snow) ABS doesn;t help - it is better to build up a 'bow wave' of gravel / snow in front of the tyre. I guess new 'nanny state' legislation makes this a big no-no nowadays.

 

Guy

 

See some pictures of the build here. First 2000 miles completed!

 

Edited by - 7heavensoon on 21 Jun 2004 11:54:17

[JAG]

the quickest way to stop on dry tarmac is to lock up!

 

NOT TRUE - quickest way to stop on any surface is to allow the wheel/tyre to continue to rotate. Maximum adhesion, between the tyre and braking surface, is achieved at approximately 15% tyre/surface slip*. This figure is used by the ABS software to minimise stopping distances on ALL surfaces.

 

* Where 0% slip is tyre/road speed synchronised and 100% slip is wheel locked whilst the vehicle is still moving.

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[Bedazzled]

 

I completely agree with Paul. I've learned to cadence brake on the track etc and I can do it no problem when there's time to think ahead but, for an average driver like me, it just doesn't work like that when you're in an emergency.

 

Someone pulled out in front of me last year and I instinctively jumped on the brakes. The front wheels locked up for about 50-60 yards and I can remember realising there wasn't enough space to stop but I just couldn't get off the brakes. When I was about 10 yards away from the car (and still doing about 20mph) I finally got off the brakes completely and swerved around it.

 

I was very lucky, and with ABS I would have stopped a *lot* quicker.

 

 

[Graham Sewell]

OK - so how many of you have tried with and without ABS on a skid pan (only safe place to do it). I have, and yes you can stop quicker without ABS. I have done it! The advantage of ABS is that it allows steering - no more than that.

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[paul jacobs]

The point though Graham, is that in real world conditions, this is not a skid pan, most drivers, even ones who have used their cars in anger on a track, will still just jam the brake pedal to the floor, and this is where ABS will actually pull the car up quicker. Now whether this will be the case with a Seven is another matter.

[john aston]

I do not want ABS on my Seven but would not dream of doing without it on daily driver.I can cadence brake too , but unlike some more expert than I am,I wouldn't claim to stop better with it than ABS. My trip to work involves 8 miles of narrow and ungritted road and in winter I find ABS an absolute godsend to be honest. And if it wasn't so good why is it now banned in F1 ?