Are caterham putting the best engine in their cars?

[Nick Woods]

While I think of it, here's something I posted a while ago :-

 

Rover Boy :- the most common type of Boy. Prefers cars that are powered by cheese. Often makes up for the light weight of the engine by being 3 stone overweight himself. Has a tendency to whine and remove his head at frequent intervals. Doesnt admit to liking Metros but often has a secret fetish for them

 

Crossflow Boy :- A bit of a traditionalist this one, likes flat cap, pipe and slippers. Prefers boat anchors to engines and is convinced they dont make anything like they used to. Doesnt like cheese. Tends to be noisy and to drink a lot.

 

Zetec Boy :- A Crossflow boy who is trying to be a new man. Usually ends up with a bigger anchor than before.

 

Vauxhall Boy :- Convinced that his is the one true way. Can be a tad on the hefty side but has legendary speed and reliability, even though he is the only one who says so

 

Biker Boy :- Likes things that are small, light and make lots of noise. Doesnt like going backwards

 

Duratec Boy :- A mythical creature said to be propelled entirely by speculation and rumour. Allegedly the new Rover Boy but , like the Yeti, has rarely been sighted in the wild. Hangs to the right

 

Pinto Boy :- Thinks boat anchors are too light, prefers ones intended for supertankers. Likes things rough and ready. Also hangs to the right

 

😬

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[Graham Perry]

Good stuff 😬

[charlie_pank]

Have a look here here. What I took away from this discussion was that different people have different interpretations of the word "best" in the subject of this thread. Having ridden a bike for a little while, I don't see what the fuss is about the gearbox & earplugs (I wear them in my K anyway). I'm now very keen to get my hands on a BEC and even willing to do the dirty to get one...

 

Edited by - charlie_pank on 29 Apr 2004 12:40:47

[tom7]

AMMO's point is fair and well made until the "should make 180bhp on TB's"

Whilst I'm sure this is true, Caterham can't sell a car like this. The std. Duratec makes 145bhp out of the box as would be fitted to a factory car, which is not that remarkable for an up-to-date engine. It still doesn't compare with the K bhp /kg equation...yet.

I am sure the future ultimately lies elsewhere, however, the K will be EURO 4 compliant and any future deal would need to include a level of technical support that few manufacturers would commit to for sales at this level.

[The Gimp]

So you think that all the K's that are fitted to the R cars are out of the box.............?

 

Yeah out of the box from PTP

 

 

So out of the box Duratecs from Minister would be what exactly

[The Gimp]

from Fat Arnie

 

"I know a chap who has recently developed a forced induction version of the VAG 1.8 unit which dynoed at 525bhp!!!! "

 

 

So fit a 2lt Mitsubushi engine, 800bhp and 600FT/LBS............. 😬

Look that was my gearbox................

 

 

www.norrisdesign.com

 

Lov Yoo

 

[The Gimp]

SORRY

 

 

http://www.norrisdesigns.com/

 

for all your silly jap ricer spec silly engines that produce BHP and torque in abundance

 

 

 

Lov Yoo

[pete east]

My car has a Xflow and goes well for such an old engine design,but I must admit I do envy the owners of sevens with more up to date engines when the question of fuel consumption is raised. Often I will go out for fuel and think its good for a blat, only to return with the same or less fuel than when I started out! What is the best consumption anyone can recall getting from their Xflow and how was it achieved?

[rgrigsby]

I'm amazed no-one has mentioned bike engines yet, a Hayabusa engine is lighter/cheaper and makes more power than quite a few other listed engines in standard form plus it has a built-in 6 speed sequential box!!

 

OK yes it's a bit too much for some people but if you're running a highly tuned car engine (such as my 8500rpm xflow) a bike engine is no worse and tbh probably better....

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[charlie_pank]

rgrigsby: if you are that amazed, why don't you read the topic before commenting on it? (sorry, tone came out harsher than I intended).

[Chris K]

@ Nick Woods...

 

Crossflow boy:- ....Tends to be noisy and to drink a lot.

YEESSSSSSSS *thumbup*

 

😬

 

I wonder if you can get A021R's with studs?? 😬

[Anthony]

Sorry double post

 

Anthony

 

Raceco can on and it looks stunning

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Anthony on 29 Apr 2004 15:52:45

[Sheds Moderator]

anthony, how did you manage to make a double post with almost 4 hours between the 2?

 

Have you been drinking?

[Meldrew]

I'm sure the K is economically very good for Caterham. Every extra engine Powertrain can shove down their assembly line absorbs some more overhead from that big old factory of theirs. I'll bet they are more than keen to talk price on any incremental volume, however small.

 

If Lotus go 100% Toyota, Caterham will be Powertrain's third largest customer after MG-Rover and Land Rover. I would have thought Ford would be keen to ditch the K and KV6 in favour of their own economies of scale as soon as possible, too. Commercially it must give Caterham a rather stronger position than chatting with Ford or Honda.

 

Sooner or later the K will be replaced by something more modern, but hey, it does a pretty good job at the moment and it's got to be good for business. The key question for Caterham is balancing how long Powertrain stay in business (I can't imagine them having the funds to do too muich new product development) against the ability to go on keeping the K competitive against more modern engines.

[tom7]

Meldrew,

You are very well informed and, I would suggest, accurate.

The Lotus rationale for switching to Toyota is for entry to the US, at least at face value, however, given their previous commercial tie-up, I would look closer to what engines PROTON will be fitting in the near future for a better clue to that decision, especially as Mitsubishi have just gone t1ts-up.

 

Tom

[Blue-Lines]

"The naivety and absurdity of the original post almost beggars belief!"

Tom 7 i am indeed a naive and possibly absurd individual who knows little about the "real world"- being a student...however i was being hyperbolic in approach, and by no means mocking anyone be they k-series owners or not! Just catalysing conversation.

 

I am just interested in people opinions on whether they feel there is perhaps a better engine option available for the seven. I mean i see people are looking at installing duratecs more and more, why? Because they see them as better despite the offset affect of extra time and effort involved in going down such an avenue. Its probably not going to benefit them much in the long term, with residuals no better, probably worse. So the "the new Rover Boy”-duratec boy must see such an engine as a better option! Perhaps it is a better platform from which to modify from, perhaps it is because its a Ford engine tradition and piece of mind, perhaps it has more torque and is less peaky in similar states of tune. I dont know you tell me.

 

Of course i realise there are huge economic considerations etc and Caterham cant ditch engine suppliers on a whim, relationships are built up with companies and Caterham being relatively small have to tread carefully especially being so focussed on such a niche market.

 

"Surely what matters is how they perform in a 7" is indeed the single most important factor. Does anyone know if a ****el engine would fit in a seven, would you buy one if it had one in? I mean the k-series shelf life must be coming to an end? how many cars are powered by the “k” engine today that are not reaching the end of their line or cant be powered by the companies engine that most likely owns them- Ford,Mazda group?

 

[Meldrew]

Tom - I claim no insider information or knowledge, I've just seen enough manufacturing plants in my time doing marginal cost deals to keep them on target in the short term. Mostly making sticking plasters rather than engines.

 

Given your location, are you speaking from a position of relative authority?

[robmar]

I mean the k-series shelf life must be coming to an end?

---

 

how long after ford stopped making xflows did they continue to appear in new caterhams 🤔 shelf life of the engine is not important it is availability for caterham to get hold of the smallish numbers they need....

 

i suspect caterham will be sticking with the K for some time for better or worse

 

over the last 25 years caterham have supplied cars with 3 main engine types x-flow, vauxhall 2 litre & K (all in various states of tune and guises) . In that time many other engines have been fitted by individuals and 3rd party companies, but caterham have generally not mucked about with the engine choice and stayed rather consistent.

 

just my 2p's worth

 

rob

[New Cat]

My x-flow sounds right 😬 and goes well. Following Pete East's comment, I took mine on a 200 mile round trip over the weekend and the fuel consumption was very modest even with a few hard blasts along the way (around 30mpg I believe). I'll agree that fuel consumption is rubbish on short blats though..

 

If the future is Duratec (I'd certainly look long and hard into this if my x-flow blew up spectacularly) then maybe we should befriend the Westfield guys since their latest standard road car has around 200bhp from a Duratec (does anyone know who supplies it to them? how much it costs? how similar a Caterham installation would be?) I think Westfield supplies are usually relatively modestly priced too (compared with Caterham anyway!)

[fordy]

Someone said the K series as used in a seven is not the same as the Metro engine.

 

Err, yes it was, the original 1.4K series in sevens came out of the Metro GTi. The supersport bits were added later and at some point the wet linered blocks were switched to damp linered and the low port heads switched to high port. My original 1995 1.4 Kseries (before I bust it) was wet linered and low port head. The engine I replaced it with was damp linered and high port head.

 

Of course the 1600 and 1800 k's were not used in metros but they are not exactly that different.

 

Irrelevant anyway of course.

 

The future of Caterhams engine supply deal on k series in part comes down to how far powertrain can push the emissions performance of the K. I hear they will release a Euro IV engine which buys several years yet (mandatory use by Jan 2006). I find it hard to believe they'll go as far as Euro V though. I don't think Euro V will be mandated until ballpark 2010 in passenger cars though.

 

I think theres life in the old dog yet and Caterham clearly have a nice relationship with Powertrain - I see no immediate reason for them to change.

 

OTOH, we know Caterham are willing to supply 'duratec' chassis's (they quoted me for an 'R300 Duratec Chassis'). One would imagine they developed that for a reason. And no I don't have any insider info either !

 

Clearly you need to look at who is set up historically for low volume supply of production engines. You're looking at Rover and Ford of course with their daughter entities, Powertrain and Ford Power Products respectively. Vauxhall must also be in the running having supplied Caterham in the past. I'd say is usual they'd go to who they have had current/past relationships with.

 

Look at Lotus/Toyota. The recent deal came about because Lotus still had relevant contacts in Toyota from the old Excel days.

 

I reckon any engine change is at least a couple of years away. Caterham recently seem to be on a 1 new major car a year cycle. This year its R500EVO, last year R400, R300 year before. I imagine next years car would be the Eurocup racecar, possibly a road version of it (with the 2.0EVO K series perhaps?) Maybe 2006 might see a new engined Caterham.

[RESOLVIWOLF]

the K was good in its time... and as said above the choice was made many years ago by caterham .... things have moved on considerably since then though and a change is well overdue. FRom what I gather, teh rover deal expires very shortly so hopefully that'll mean some good news from CC.

 

I guess I used to like the K and defend it a bit when I had one but once i'd been through 3 of them and also sampled the other engines that now lead the way... well, my views changed drastically. Certainly for regular track use id rather use anything else (even with a weight penalty) - thats crossflow, zetec, vx, cossie, you name it.

[RESOLVIWOLF]

"They should deliver R500 performance at a fraction of cost and without reliability issues.

Proof of the pudding will be reviews of the cars being built and there performance on the track. "

 

 

 

 

 

or just follow my website ....

 

 

currently 2 trackdays and 1 limit handling day where the car was ragged sh1tless and did potential dry-sump-defying 1g+ constant radius stuff for long periods of time

[AMMO]

Tom7

 

You make a good point regarding stock engines that Caterham have to fit. They probably would be better off fitting a Toyota or Honda if they want a powerful emissions compliant engine. I only look at engines for their tuning potential, availability and price. As my car was kit built in '89 I can get away with fitting whatever I like and tuning it to whatever level I like.

 

The Duratec is still the best solution for me 😬

 

AMMO

[tom7]

I have to confess I used to sell K engines for a living and was responsible for the PTP and Lotus accounts whilst at Rover/Powertrain. I also confess I would love a go in Duratec engined car .

Martyn, I apologise if I was a little 'robust' in my initial post, I dont wish to cause personal offence but phrases such as "crappy K series" & "Metro engine" in a derisory context don't immediately seem to be phrased to promote debate.

I am no evangelist but I am willing to defend *my* choice of engine, as AMMO has said "its the best solution for me"......at the moment

 

[Meldrew]

Aha! The truth will out!