Corrosion on mid 90's cars.

[Graham S]

I am possibly going to look at a 1996 1.6 k-series car. I am aware of problems with the painting of the spaceframes of these cars when they were in the factory. Can anyone give me more info of where and what to look for when going to view a car of this age. Also how much work/ money is involved in rectifying the problem. I understand a stripdown is some times required and POR15 needs to be applied?

Also bearing in ming the poss head gasket problems with these cars, what signs should I look for in this dept.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Nick Woods]

In a nutshell, everywhere. The powdercoating wasnt very well applied in the mid-90s and can flake of just about anywhere.

 

If its coming off an exposed chassis rail then its an easy cure - POR15 or smooth hammerite will fix it. However there is a dirt trap between the outside of the footwell and the inside of the outer skin, and once dirt has got in there the powdercoat flakes off and you get galvanitic corrosion of the body side.

 

If you see bubbles in the paint on the body side below the windscreen pillars then it will be corrosion that has gobne all the way through the skin. The only cure is to have it reskinned and resprayed, which can be anything from about £400 to about £2500 depending on how much you have reskinned, whether you sdtrip and rebuild it yourself and whther it needs respraying. Some people go as fas as removing every panel from the car and having the bare tubes recoated and reskinned by Arch Motors (the chassis maker and official repairers)

 

If you want some ideas of what corrosion can look like, look at my photos here

 

Also if you do a search on corrosion you will find a lot of threads about it

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[Paul McKenzie]

Sinky,

 

As you are aware, powder coat was bad at that time. The easy to see bits are the rear suspension components and chassis rails. Jack the car up or get it on a hoist and take a look at these. Prepare for a shock if they've not been dealt with. Although this will often look really bad, the rust will normally only be surface and the components can be returned to good as new with some hard work and POR15.

 

The real problem, though, are the hidden bits ☹️ especially the notorious sh*t traps down the sides of the footwells. Crap gathers there and accelerates the electrochemical corrosion cells which exist due to the meeting of the alloy panels and the steel frame tubes at those points. If you look closely in those areas you will see bubbling of the paint due to the underlying corrosion. Although you can inject Dinitrol intyo these points, I think that with a '96 car the damage will already have been done. Eventually the only way to sort this IMHO will be to strip down the whole car remove the panels and have the chassis repaired, properly coated and repannelled by Arch.

 

I don't know when this will be necessary , but I for one fully intend to do this with my own '96 car sometime in the future. I don't particularly see this as a negative as I will have a 'new' car at the end of the rebuild which is worth the effort 😬

 

As far as HG goes, no doubt some K owners will be able to tell you what to look for, but I would take an existing owner along with me for the viewing if I were you.

 

Paul

[Nick Woods]

Re the head gasket, all I can suggest is to look at the coolant for signs of oil, the oil for signs of coolant (it looks like mayonnaise under the oil filler) and keep an eye on the temperature guage when you test drive it.

 

My gauge never goes beyond 80-85 and I would suggest that if it gets anywhere near 100 there may be a problem, although the guages can misread so its hard to be certain unless you can borrow an external sensor such as a pyrometer or thermocouple

 

Also look under the nosecone and around the expansion tank for signs of boiling over in the past.

 

The best advice is to take someone with you who knows about 7's - if you havent already done so go along to your local meet and talk to a few people. I bought mine without doing this and if I knew as much about corrosion then what I know now I might not have bought it

 

If you are not sure, just walk away. They do come up for sale fairly often - check the autotrader and findit websites as well as on here

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[Graham S]

Thanks for the feed back,

to what extent does this problem exist and precisely what age groups of cars are worst affected.

To my mind I would much rather a virtually rust free car with slightly less power i.e. 1.6vx than

something with 15 extra bhp with an inherent corrosion problems. When spending 10k+ on a car I

would expect it to be pretty much immaculate give or take a few stone chips, i am expecting too much?

[Sheds Moderator]

Mine is a 96 and not great. I've been lucky in that the ally is still OK but the powder is coming off in lots of areas. I'm repainting gradually. I believe them to be better from 98, it's not too much to ask to get a rustfree example but bear in mind these cars have very little body protection cf. an ordinary car. They aren't even painted underneath, much less coated in 3mm of mastic.

[SLR No.77]

Mines a '95 and no real issues - only flaking evident is due to wear and tear over time - road rash etc. I believe cars of around 97 - 98 are the worst if that helps, but the problem isn't evident on every car.

 

Stu.

[Paul McKenzie]

Sinky,

Yes, you're asking too much 😳...as Boss implied Caterham's are different, and owning/maintaining them requires a different mentality to your run of the mill tin-tops 😳.

 

The real problem years for powder coat were '96-98, but any car that's been used during the winter months will show problems on the rear suspension and chassis tubes. Also the problem at the side of the footwells will, I would guess, apply to some degree to any car irrespective of whether it falls into the bad powder coat era.

 

Ultimatelt I can see only two ways around these issues, firstly you could buy a new kit and knowing what we know now do a pretty good job of corrosion proofing it during the build stage, or do what most of us do and just accept the inevitable ☹️, sell it on and get a newer model, or keep it and ultimately rebuild it.

 

Paul

[Sheds Moderator]

Look gents, let's not get it out of perspective, these things are cars and as such will corrode. Metal can be replaced and repaired. Buy the thing, use it for its intended purpose and maintain/repair it as necessary. If this means a rebuild after x years of ownership, so be it.

 

Having said that, do avoid buying a dog in the first place unless the price is right.

[ewenm]

I agree with BOSS - the cars will corrode, accept it. Buy it, use it, maintain it and the corrosion isn't a major problem - anyway surely it's a bit lighter when some of metal has corroded away

 

Sinky - I've got a 97 1.6 K Series and it's got some of the paintwork bubbliness - I can send you a picture if you like so you know what we mean - let me know

 

E.

 

72511 miles and driven daily

[Graham S]

I understand that every car will have it's own imperfections, and a secondhand car is never as good as a new car, however I do want to purchase as clean an example as possible. One of the initial attractions of a Caterham for me was the fact that most of the maintenance is mechanical rather than structural/bodywork. I have owned a few "classic" tin tops in the past and MOT time has given me headaches on more than one occasion. Not being a skilled mechanic I find preventitive maintenace easier and cheaper than corrective maintenace.

 

EwenM, Could you send me the pics if its not too much bother?

 

 

Thanks

Sinky

[Nick Woods]

Sinky - if you follow the link in my first post , one of the photo albums shows some white spots on the side of the car. These are corrosion bubbles that I picked the paint off

 

This photo here probably shows best where they occcur

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

 

Edited by - Nick Woods on 22 Apr 2004 13:33:43

[xflow7]

Nick,

 

Thanks for posting those pics. BTW, that burn looks PAINFUL! 😳 From the exhaust I presume?

[Nick Woods]

Indeed 😳 . When it was rebuilt I had a second heatshield added - see here

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[Prisoner66]

Slinky.........just be sure to buy on general condition, as already posted not all 96-98 cars are affected by any means. Most caterhams regardless of years that are used regularly will show a few chips and scrapes on rear A frame & chassis members as will the front wishbone areas these are expected.

 

But if you look at the chassis and see larger flaking patches then you can assume that the hidden parts are the same and could be suspect. The flaking due to poor powder coating will occur even if the car is not driven as opposed to a few scrapes and chips which are debris related.

 

FWIW, my last Superlight was registered in Dec 96 and showed absolutely no flaking whatsoever anywhere, even then I still touched up a few scrapes on the rear A frame with smooth hammerite and injected & sprayed everything underneath up to door level with 5 litres of waxoyl, especially down the sides of the footwells. If you have a sound car protect it immediately

[alicat]

I have a 97 car - powder coating is 99% intact. No corrosion problems.

 

Alicat

 

 

[Nifty]

I believe Mr Woods may be thinking of my car when he mentions totally stripping and rebuilding, sadly my driving hasn't let me down to the point that the insurance company has shelled out to fix the chassis and therefore the inherent corrosion problems *tongue*

 

I have just done this and am just about to start reassembling.

My car was a 95 model and I would suggest the bad years are 95 to 97 inclusive. Arch/Caterham changed the process of powder coating and this led to the problems we all know, this became event when the earliest cars were 3 years old I am told and hence the process was changed again to include a pre-treatment to the steel before powdercoating.

 

Disregard mileage when considering this problem. What makes it worse is damp/humid conditions and a rarely used car in a damp garage may well be in worse condition than a car that has been used (and therefore ventilated) frequently.

 

I was amazed at just how much of my chassis had a flaking problem when we pulled all the panels off it. This was not down to abrasion etc but purely due to the powdercoating not adhering to the metal and lifting off. Chassis rails that looked fine even after stripping and were not exposed to any road debris, water etc (eg the dashboard railings) had a number of blisters in the powdercoat.

 

Rule No 1.

Always look underneath the car at the chassis rails. Get it jacked up or better still put it on a 4 poster so you can see the underside quite clearly. Just trying to peer underneath whilst the car sits on the tarmac will not allow you to see anything.

Personally, after looking at my car on a 4 poster I'd suggest the key areas to inspect are the rails and mounting bracket plate around the gearbox because these are the least accessable when the car is jacked from one end or other and so if waxoyling has been less than thorough this area will show it. Also flaking powder coating shows easier here and is less likely to be confused with stone chip damage at the front end. The tubes at the back of the floor panels, in front of the fuel tank is also a usual suspect.

Don't look in the engine bay and think it looks okay. This is the easiest place for any half hearted person to waxoyl/oil and obviously the engine may be oiling it too. A number of people have superficially nice cars that on further investigation are not in quite as good condition as first thought.

 

Rule No. 2

If the seller is reluctant to cooperate with your inspection requests bid them good morning/afternoon, get back in your tintop and have yourself a pint in the evening safe in the knowledge that you haven't bought a duffer.

 

Rule No. 3

Always do the body/chassis inspection before you take the car for a run, otherwise you're in danger of falling for the car and then your heart will start to overpower your head.

 

Rule No. 4

Always obey Rules 1, 2 and 3.

 

 

I know all this because I bought such a car and then my heart sank (briefly) when I realised what condition it was actually in.

Why did I buy it.....because I didn't follow the rules laid out above but fell for the look, superficial paint job and raucous, revvy engine (1400 Supersport).

 

No regrets mind..though this winter has cost me a few bob.

But if I knew then what I know now I'd have paid less for the car..or not bought it at all.

 

 

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[Prisoner66]

Nifty.....you didnt buy your car privately from a place near the sea in Kent did you?

[Nifty]

No, I bought it privately from someone who frequents this website from time to time.

 

I don't blame them because they wanted to sell the car and I fell in love with it and didn't inspect it thoroughly enough. I still may have bought it if the price had been readjusted to reflect the true condition.

 

Having said that, if I were selling it I think I would have pointed out one or two points that I found later...but that's why I paid too much for the previous Esprit and then sold it 16 months later for somewhat less and probably undersold my dear old Landie too.

 

Some of us live but don't learn. 😳

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

 

Edited by - Nifty on 22 Apr 2004 23:52:36

[Irrelevant]

Nick Woods: It must have taken ages to fix all that corrosion A very unenviable task . ..

 

Sinky: FWIW, mines 1992(admittedly low miles at just over 9000 now) and has hardly any corrosion. POR15 and (Smooth)Hammerite are good matches, but I found Hammerite stone chip shield was a near perfect match for the coating on my car - which I assume is original. I reckon the stone chip shield will resist chips better than normal hammerite as well.

 

J351 TPE - broken again!

[Nifty]

In Mr Woods absence let me refer you to the top of my first post...

 

MSM/NIG paid Arch to fix the corrosion...

 

.....and the bends, the cracks, the fractures, the creases .... *mad*

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

 

Edited by - Nifty on 22 Apr 2004 23:56:29

[Nick Woods]

Oi Nifty

 

Cleaning and repainting the front chassis rails took me most of a weekend, and it was a pretty horrible job.

 

Replacing the entire front end and all the bodyskins after I crashed it took Arch lot longer ☹️ 😳

 

However, the end result is good as new although unlike Niftys the rear chassis rails were untouched. Fortunately Chris Wheeler at the 7 workshop repainted those while the body skins were off (photos here)

 

 

 

Nick

Red and Black 1.6K supersport

visit Carrotland.co.uk

 

[Shaun_E]

My '97 chassis is a complete mess with severe bubbling of the paint beside the footwells. I have kept the worst exposed areas safe with applications of POR15 but the hidden bits have finally got too bad. I will run the car for the summer and then take it apart this coming winter and have it completely stripped and re-coated. This was not something I expected to have to do on a seven year old car but at least I will know that the job has been done properly.

I do run the car through the winter and in pretty much any conditions so I guess I am partly to blame.

Once rebuilt I will make sure that the grot-traps are well waxoiled or dinitroled to prevent a reoccurrence of the problems.

Shaun

 

Yellow SL #32

[Graham S]

Thanks for all your replies so far, because I live in the far north of scotland I need to embark on a fairly long journey to look at most of the cars that are for sale. So obviously doing some homework on blatchat is helping me minimise my chances of a wasted trip to look at a car that isn't what it may seem.

From what I have gathered from the feedback on this posting I will be very careful before going to view any cars in the age group mentioned in this posting. i understand that there may very well be some cars in the 95-98 age group that are perfectly clean however the powder coating is definately an issue.

In my case i am looking for a car which will require only basic mechanical maintenance, so i dont want to embark on any major overhauls, at least not for a good few years anyway.......My search continues!

[stevefoster]

Winter salt will corrode a 7 of this era. Probably the latest ones too. The pics shown and some of the cars I have viewed have been shocking as to corrosion. Carefully looked after, Waxoyl apps in the risk areas and touching in the stone chips will see a sumer used 7 last virtually for ever.

 

Keep looking until you find one that fits your criteria.

 

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