philwaters Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 Hi, new here so be gentle :-) My current 100bhp 1.6 x/f in no longer enough so I am looking around for possible replacements. Top of the list is currently the 2.0l Zetec with around 160bhp - more than enough for me and as I'm only 24 I have to think of th insurance! A friend has recently done thing, using Dunnell, and is happy except that he says he misses the x/f feeling about 4000rpm. So my question does any one kno if the 1.8l tuned to the same power output produce a more peeky power delivery akin to the X/flow or am I making a fuss about nothing? OR has anyone converted a live axle x/f Caterham to K-series? is it possible? will it be too expensive compared to the Zetec? Phil Waters Q181 ABL - 1600X/F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 For that money, why not get Roger King to do an 1800xflow? Should produce more than enough power - albeit no as bulletproof as a Zetec. Cheers, Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 when you are interested in the 'feel' of an engine rather than outright power or the shape of the torque curve , the best thing to do is try a few variants and pick the one you like the best. From what I recall, most of the popular engines can be made to fit in most of the chassis, with varying degrees of expense/hassle. Try before you buy is the motto I would apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted May 17, 2001 Author Share Posted May 17, 2001 Thanks guys, I intend trying as much as I can before the winter...and am waiting to hear if the Fireblade engine is retro-fittable - or will that be a tad extreme for the cruising road use mine gets.... Phil Waters Q181 ABL - 1600X/F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taran Las Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 Phil, Why not bore it out to a nominal 1700 (similar suggestion to previous). Put 1300cc pistons in and perhaps a little head work. Some of the modifications peformed on the head are not visible to the naked eye should your insurance want to take a look. Dependent on the condition of your current engine this would be a relatively cheap upgrade while keeping the character of the engine. Phil Owen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 You have to go a long way with a xflow to match even a mildy tuned Zetec, and the torque curve would be even more diffcult to replicate, some mild work on the Zetec head and a pair of reasonable cams together with properly calibrated Webers or TBs can lift the zetec into 100BHP+ per litre territory. The cam choice more than anything else gives the engine that *urgent* feeling higher up the rev range, drive a car with a decent 4 valve engine and you will never want a 2 valver again, they simply cannot match the depth and width of the torque curve, nor the peak power output. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted May 17, 2001 Author Share Posted May 17, 2001 I agree, and with my sort of driving I feel that a Zetec is most suited, being most suited to higher gear cruising when I'm in the lazy mood, or on a long trip. My concerns about fitted 'hotter' cams to get the urgent engine feels is that I don't want more power than 160bhp odd as I am concerned about the life of my axle and can't afford to start replacing both engine and axle at the same time. Hence the 1.8l with hotter cams might give me similar power to a std 2.0l but with the urgent feel? or does it - anyone out there got one and can tell me? Phil Waters Q181 ABL - 1600X/F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 I know it's not what most people would go for but I have 'kent' based engine with 176bhp, a flat torque curve (as its an 8 valve engine not multi-valve) and the most amazing feel and sound. It is capable of leaving most of the competition for dead and is VERY drivable. I also have a 4 speed box and live axle. I agree with Graham Sewell, go with a kent based engine. For more info see http://freespace.virgin.net/shaw.clan Small Boy - with Big Toy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted May 18, 2001 Share Posted May 18, 2001 Phil I have started building an 1800 Zetec to replace my 1700 Crossflow. I decided not to go for the 2 litre lump as with the cylinder head and cam mods I intend to do it would be difficult to keep it under 200 bhp. So the plan is to have around 180 bhp in a docile state of tune with a nice tractable feel at the low end but with lots of go at the top end if you want it. Problem is that all the ancillaries are going to cost a small fortune. I've budgeted around £3,000 for the conversion but I don't know if I can keep below that. I have full facilities at work to build and modify the engine and have an account with the likes of Kent cams etc. and get all the bits at trade. In retrospect it would have been a lot easier to mod the Xflow. You then don't have to buy exhaust headers, engine mounts, etc.etc.etc. I already have a Mini with an eight valve cast iron lump and really fancied something a bit more go and a bit more up to date. So, my advice, for what it's worth, is if you are on a budget go for the modified crossflow (not with the 1300 pistons which are crap). Get some nice oversize forgings and a nice cam and head mods. If money is not too much of a problem get a Zetec. It has the potential to produce more horsepower much easier than the eight valve. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted May 19, 2001 Share Posted May 19, 2001 I pretty much agree with Ammo's analysis of this one. But be warned that you are pushing your luck with a 180bhp+ in a live axle car. Cue loads of postings from people with 300bhp live axle cars! Realistically, a nice tractable 150bhp Crossflow would make a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Phil - and AMMO, I have convrted to an 1800 Zetec (from x flow). I was never happy with the original engine, un reliable, down on power, two years down the road and I am very happy with the comversion. A standard 1800 zetec with original cams (PS130)on webber 40s (45 not essential) will give you about 150bhp. It is almost bullet proof, but if you do destroy it in a big way you can replace it for about five hundred quid. Try rebuilding a xflow putting out 150bhp for twice that. The conversion does cost, but is a one off, however, you do not need all the sexy looking bits. I bought bits form james Whiting and he was teriffic, did not sell stuff I didn't need. i.e. standard waterpump OK, on the 1800 you can get away with the standard flywheel, most, if not all of the engine gaskets can be re-used. You can also make up your own engine mounts and paint your own cam cover. I was also lucky and had access to an alluminium welder and the sump and water pipes were made/modified at no cost - water pipes could be made up in steel. At a later date, perhaps when you have done something about the rear axle (LSD, converted to Ford etc) you can lighten ther flywheel and fit the hot cams. I do not regret the conversion, every time I drive the car I know I made the right decision teeth.gif. Regards allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayTee Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 >But be warned that you are pushing your luck with a 180bhp+ in a live axle car. Hmm ! I've got a BDA producing about that. I got an English axle with Quaife ATB and 9" drums (3.89), a FlowTech/Quaife 'pro' s/c box, and an AP twin sintered clutch. All that will be taken care of by fully adjusteable AVO shocks. Roger, do you think this is a mixture one could label suicidal ? (on 6x13 Superlites and A032Rs) Well, I hope to be able to know for sure this summer :-) Cheers - Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskip Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Very interesting. Does anyone have cost comparisions for both the XFlow upgrade and converting to a Zetec, for say approx. 150bhp? Does the Zetec sound as good as the Xflow? Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Karsten, I'm sure Roger was probably referring just to the 'Ital' axle which, as we know, was never designed to run these sort of power levels. You should be fine with the Ford English axle though. Clive, I would say my Zetec doesn't sound as 'raspy' or 'crisp' as my old X/Flow (subjective descriptions, I know) but at least my ears aren't ringing for the rest of the day after a blat in the country! The conversion is still well worth doing though thumbsup.gif Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted May 21, 2001 Author Share Posted May 21, 2001 Thank guys, given me plenty to mull over whilst I 'try' to get the money together. I like the idea of the 1.8l Zetec, would be more insurance friendly for me as well as being able to be tuned beyond my axle if I want more later, but is 100 to 150 bhp enough of a jump - hehehe oh no the power bug's bitten! Phil Waters Q181 ABL - 1600X/F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Kay Tee, My answer to your question has to be 'I dunno!'. I'm afraid that I am famous for knowing as much about the car beyond the clutch as my accountant. That's why I leave all of that stuff to Chris Wheeler in the 7 Workshop. Only thing I can say is that I've often had the satisfying (for an engine builder) news that one of my engine upgrades has broken something in the transmission. Edited by - roger king on 21 May 2001 13:35:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bafty Crastard Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 I have kept my "eye open" for an advertised Zetec with out much success, any suggestions as where you can obtain a secondhand or cheap new unit, Raceline and Dunnell are expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Bafty Crastard, try: Eddie White 48 Evershill Lane Morton Alfreton Derbyshire DE55 6HA Telephone: 0044 (0)1773 875105 Mobile: 0850 834440 He sold me my 1800. Has good contacts in car trade, & car breakers too. Regards, thumbsup.gif allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 So whats everyones opinion on a safe BHP limit for a Ford English live axled car with a plate type LSD and standard MK2 Escort halfshafts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskip Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Excuse my ignorance, but which Axle do I have a Ford English or an Ital? I have a 1994 1600 Xflow Live Axle (Classic SE). Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayTee Posted May 21, 2001 Share Posted May 21, 2001 Clive: if it's original, it's going to be an Ital axle. You can easily distinguish them by the wheel pcd: if over 100mm, then it's a Ford, if under, then it's an Ital. The latter being most likely. Cheers - Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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