The BEST standard brakes set-up?

[tom7]

Having just spoken to John Freeth at Performance Braking, his suggestion for the optimum brake set-up on standard discs and calipers was to use Pagid RS15's in the front and RS14's on the back. It is thought this set up gives nothing away to the AP big brakes solution and doesn't need at bias valve. - All good stuff except the price, you pay dearly for top quality, over £200 for a car set of pads

I have no doubt that the advice is the best, but my car is primarily a road car plus L7 club sprints and a few trackdays, would I be over doing it?

What experiences do others have with these pads on the road regarding ease of use (warm-up) and squeal?

All opinions useful as I may be making a significant investment 😳

 

Cheers

Tom

[rgrigsby]

I used RS14 all round on big brakes with a bias valve, the pads are superb but they do squeal as they start to wear down. Apart from that I've found no problems with them at all....

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Paul McKenzie]

Tom,

 

I don't believe it 😳

 

There's no substitute for 4 pot calipers and bigger discs, no matter how good the pads you put in standard brakes ☹️

 

Paul

[rgrigsby]

I guess it depends on what you are doing, unless you are doing track days the standard brake set-up is probably OK with decent pads. It's only when you start doing track days that you need the extra heat capacity of the uprated brakes.

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Anthony]

Rob, I'd go along with that. Std calipers and decent pads can lock up the fronts.

 

better brakes at the front be it HiSpec/James Whitting/AP, certainly improve confidence levels on a the track.

 

If the Pads are 200 GBP you are a third of the way to a set of AP's including front Mintex pads

 

Regards

[Rob Walker]

I would listen to john freeth he knows what hes talking about. The Pagids may seem expensive but I have found them to last a very long time and this makes them good value. especially if you can get away with the standard brake set up.

[JAG]

Guys,

 

what is the perceived performance improvement with the 4 pot calipers?

 

Do they use a bigger disc? or is it vented?

 

I can't really see any advantage except perhaps to the retailer of the aforementioned 4-pot calipers

 

I would agree with Johns advice.

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

 

Edited by - JAG on 2 Apr 2004 09:47:58

[Paul McKenzie]

JAG,

 

Massive

 

Yes, yes

 

Rubbish

 

Good for you, but you both happen to be wrong

 

Paul

 

Edited by - Paul McKenzie on 2 Apr 2004 09:49:52

[JAG]

Paul,

 

more detail would be good. Is that a bigger diameter disc and vented?

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[Paul McKenzie]

Justin,

 

Yes both.

 

Now I don't have figures to support my assertion, but I have driven several cars with the standard set-up and with the Caterham 4 pot set-up on both track and road, and I can tell you that without a shred of doubt, the Caterham big brake set-up is not a fashion item

 

All I can suggest is that you try them and I guarantee you'll be immediately convinced. As I said before you cannot emulate the Caterham big brake set-up by merely changing the pads in the standard brakes, no matter how good (or expensive) the new pads.

 

Paul

 

[Irrelevant]

Caterham big brake set-up is not a fashion item

They are dead sexy though and go very well with fine spoked wheels - that big chunk of alloy behind the wheel certainly does it for me. The fact the car slows down quickly is an added bonus 😬

 

 

J351 TPE - Now running, as of 02:47, 1/1/04 . . . .yippee!!!!

[tom7]

Can of worms well and truly opened

I appreciate the big brake kit has a greater friction area therefore should be superior, however, taking into account the greater friction co-efficient of the pads, the overall effect is negated. Given that a seven is very light, is it possible to overbrake the car.

I have no experience of either pagid pads or big brakes but I am aware that the standard set-up proved a little marginal at Llandow last week, I ve since bled with DOT5.1 which should improve things but what next.

Do pagids squeal with road use?

[Alex Wong1697456877]

The ability to lock up brakes is not a judge of the brakes performance. Once a wheel has locked, it is gripping alot less than one that is rotating. The key is the ability to apply the brakes hard without locking the wheel then controlling the braking on the limit of the tyres grip whilst resisting the effects of heat being generated.

 

It depends alot on your tyres. If you are running slicks and pounding around Oulton Park, The front vented discs are of great value. I managed to overheat even these with RS14's at Magny Cours and cracked one of them in 2 places. I dread to think what might have happened to unvented discs with RS15's.

 

The Pagids are very good and I think they are worth the extra cost. They last very well and do not seem to deteriorate with time. They are also very resistant to the effects of heat. I don't think they are that good that they are preferable to the 4 pot brake kit.

[JAG]

Paul,

 

What you have experienced is an improved pedal 'feel' and increased front axle braking. These things do not make for a car that stops quicker - it just FEELS quicker

 

With road legal tyres the best you will get is approximately 1.1-1.2g deceleration (pretty special road tyres too; ACB10, AO32R etc...). This deceleration is easily achieved with the standard front brake/disc set-up but you may have to push the pedal harder.

 

Bigger vented discs will help when you start to perform continous high level deceleration (like circuit racing) because they can dissipate the heat quicker and during this kind of driving you MAY be generating the heat quicker than the standard disc can get rid of it.

 

The problem with this last scenario is that a Se7en weighs around 500-650Kg and will generally have difficulty developing the heat needed to get an advantage from large ventilated discs - most road car pads can deal with temperatures upto 550 Celsius and will only work properley over 100 Celsius. The standard disc can manage the heat from a Se7en and keep it within this range under general and trackday driving conditions.

 

So you can see that the advantage is tiny and only accesible to those drivers who regularly RACE their cars.

 

If you've recently bought some 4-pot calipers and bigger discs; DON'T WORRY I WON'T TELL YOUR WIFE ANY OF THIS - EVEN IF SHE ASKS 😬 😬 😬

 

One last thing; the 4-pot calipers may be lighter weight and bring advantages other than just braking improvement - but even this must be weighed against the larger and heavier disc.

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[Jason Plato]

The four pot calipers will only increase feel and be a litle more resistant to heat ( but that also depends upon what fluid you use ) .

 

Paul - the 4 pots performance also depens upon the pads used .

 

I agree with John Frith , that if you uprated the std brakes with Pagid pads and realy good quality fluid , then braking performance will be fantatsic and more than up to the task .

 

If you were to take a set of 4 pots and uprated rears , then add pagids to these .... the perfomance of the brakes would be further improved . The greatest improvement would be feel and modulation .

 

For £200 go for the pagids , but you will also need new discs , as the pagids sweep a larger portion of the disc .

 

Dave

[Paul McKenzie]

Ok Justin, I give in , you're theoretical knowledge base obviously exceeds mine and veryone else's practical experience, and I think yoo, your standard brakes, and Pagid pads will make a wonderful marriage Just don't ask any more questions if you don't want to listen to answers that may not coform to your expectations 🙆🏻

 

Paul

[Jason Plato]

Brakes will only stop you using 100% of the tyres friction on the road , biggest improvements can then be made in feel and modulation .

 

When I put on my 1a tyres for sprinting I'll probably have to increase my braking distances by 50% vs the 32R's , but the pagids and the 4 pots and uprated rears will provide me with optimum feel and modulation on the limit of adhesion ............ I hope

 

Dave

[tom7]

Thanks for the input guys, it would seem that for £200 I can't do any better and as the man with 25 years experience in the braking industry says there will be nothing in it. (I don't 'race' my car)

I'm glad you mentioned new discs as I was unaware of the pad area difference - cheers Dave.

 

Going back to pagids for road use, Do they squeal 🤔, will I be able to live with the noise if any.

 

Cheers

Tom

[Jason Plato]

No squeal from mine .

 

Double check the sweep area on the std disc's it also depends what pads you have used previously

[JAG]

Paul,

 

I'm sorry if I've offended you - that wasn't the plan ☹️

 

Your original posts were so assertive;

 

"Good for you, but you both happen to be wrong *thumbdown*"

 

"the Caterham big brake set-up is not a fashion item *eek*"

 

and so on..... that I felt I needed to make my point as effectively as possible. That was all I hoped for.

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[jimmyslr]

Never a squeak from mine. Did slap the copperslip on the backs of pads though.

[Alex Wong1697456877]

The standard disc can manage the heat from a Se7en and keep it within this range under general and trackday driving conditions.

---

 

I'm not sure I agree about this. Under general road conditions-yes. Under trackday conditions? I think the front's struggle and the rears struggle even more to cope with the heat. I don't think there's a difference between trackday and race conditions? Of course, my brakes have quite a heavy mass to try to decelerate compared to some of you waif like K series boys!

 

 

 

Having said that I'm concerned about the standard rears, I'm running standard rears and the Pagids are holding out well. I have watched a set of EBC green stuff completely burn up in 1 trackday with the standard rear setup. I could go through EBC reds in 3 trackdays on the front with the 4-pot setup. The Pagids are SO much more durable. I'd guess a smaller solid disc would be generating alot of heat with pads as good as the Pagids. It's just the cracked vented disc I had that makes me worry about how solid front disc will cope with such a high performance pad. I'm not saying it's a problem, just that with my limited knowledge and my personal experience, I'd be a bit concerned.

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Alex Wong on 2 Apr 2004 11:51:14

[JAG]

Alex,

 

the rate of heat dispersal from the fronts and rears is highly dependant upon the airflow around the caliper and disc. I think that is the major problem with the rear caliper and explains (for me at least) why the rears can overheat. The solid rear brake pipe can also cause the rear caliper to drag and hence heat up

 

Your comments regarding suitability of the front caliper/disc for trackday driving are impossible to argue with too many variables.

 

My remarks were meant as a general guide (I stand by that ) and are highly susceptible to variations caused by; vehicle weight, proportion of front axle braking (size of pistons, effective radius and pad mu), rate of deceleration, number and radius of corners on the track, time on track, top speed achieved, etc, etc....

 

Pad durability/wear life is a massive field and (you'll be glad to hear) something that I know nothing about 😬 😬

 

 

Justin

 

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[Jason Plato]

The R400 race cars used the std rear calipers with Hawk or Pagid pads .

 

The pad is a key issue in the rears .

 

 

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 2 Apr 2004 13:01:16

[SLR No.77]

All these facts together seem to suggest that the James Whiting option of standard discs & 4 pot Alcons (then fitted with Pagid pads) would appear to be a good choice, improving the coverage of the disc but at the same time keeping the weight down.

 

Will Pagids increase the disc wear - not a problem with the cheapo standard discs, but the vented ones are definately not cheap?

 

Stu.