Red Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Just got back, hope I didn’t miss anything ? Good idea about the manufacturers recommendations Tony – I’ll just pop and have a word with DMS now….back in a few mins….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 OK, I’m back again. They said that if I want to charge Red Top continuously I should be careful what kind of charger I use. Apparently if I do not use a constant voltage charger (aka voltage regulated charger) I would run the risk of frying my expensive race battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Well Mr Red, looks like you've been talking through that same part of your anatomy again. DMS sell two chargers specifically for Red Tops: 1. Part No. K703-K526 is a 3 stage charger which operates as follows: Stage 1: Constant CURRENT @ 2.7amps for 30 minutes. Stage 2: Constant VOLTAGE 14.7v for 6 hours Stage 3: Constant VOLTAGE @ 13.8v indefinitely One can use a bog standard (Halfords type) instead without ANY worry. If the charger has a High/Low switch, switch it to "Low". This will decrease the output volts to below 15v. The critical thing with Red Tops is not to exceed 15v charging voltage which normal car battery chargers (except those with a hi/Lo switch) will not do so they are perfectly safe to use. 2. Part No. K703-K711 is a trickle charger which only does stage 3 of the charger above and can be left on indefinitely. So it's not that CONSTANT voltage is important with Red Tops but no OVERVOLTAGE (ie: nothing greater than 15v). The reason for this is that while with a normal lead acid battery any overvoltage will just boil off some water which can be replaced, because the Red Top is sealed any overvoltage will cause an amount of electrolyte to be destroyed which cannot be replaced and so some capacity will be lost. They can be charged at any normal battery charger current (a few amps) due to their extremely low internal resistance. You do not have to worry about limiting the current. Standard "Halfords" type chargers which have a Hi/Lo switch will raise their output voltage to typically 16 volts in the "Hi" position so should be switched to "Lo" as stated above. So as long as you check the voltage is below 16v (and it will be no higher than 15v in a non Hi/Lo switched charger) you can charge the battery for 10 to 12 hours at 4 to 6 amps on a bog-standard battery charger. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ChrisW, Not sure how this has happened, but I think we might actually be in agreement on a number of points !!?? Engaging logical discussion mode (admittedly for the first time today): I don't think I or anyone else has ever disputed that you can charge tppl products like Red Top or Odyssey with a "Standard Halfords Type Charger" for short, specified durations (i.e. the ones you quoted etc). The potential issues only appear when you look to charge constantly with a conditioner or similar. As you say, overvoltage is the issue here The main point I would still challenge is regarding the "safe/unsafe" voltage threshold. What is your logic on the 15V ? If you draw this line @ 15V, I agree in theory it makes Halfords conditioners "safe" (assuming they have a 15V max ). If the line is lower, it could be different…and this is really the key point I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 The reason for the 15V cut off line is not my logic. I did the sensible thing and spoke to Technical Support at DMS and got chapter and verse from them. (I thought you said in your previous post that you had called them too, so I'm somewhat surprised you didn't get this info as well). I was given an extremely detailed breakdown of the charging requirements and the reasons behind them including their OK to use "Halfords" type chargers provided the volts don't exceed 15v for the reason previously given. 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 As a sub-point you twice use the word "conditioner" above when I believe you mean "charger". A battery conditioner is a very low current output device (typically 100mA max or so) where overvoltage is not an issue. Best not to confuse these two different beasts. For the avoidance of doubt, when I use the term "Halfords Type Chargers", I mean what most of us think of as the standard car battery charger capable of delivering around 4-6 amps with no sophistication. 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Oh boy, I fear people must be losing the will to live watching as we slug this one out… As I said in my last post, agree that 15V is fine for limited period charging with SHTC or almost anything in fact. The critical word here is limited. DMS quote specific durations in their literature (also shows in their “feature” in the DT catalogue) as to how long you should safely leave such a charger connected for. It’s hours, not days. Don’t believe this is the issue we are talking about ? However, this 15V is absolutely not OK if you intend to leave the charging device connected for extended periods (per Steve’s original question). In this scenario I believe the voltage limit should be 13.8V. In constant charging applications the manufacturers recommended float voltage for this product is 2.29vpc @ 20 deg C. This is the voltage that you need to apply if you want to keep the battery at top of charge. Any more and you may overcharge it and any less and you may undercharge it. This is why when both the DMS chargers you quoted the details of go to extended charging (“indefinite”) they clearly show a 13.8V voltage limit. Limiting to this voltage will mean the battery takes whatever current it wants and you should have no overcharge concerns whatsoever. If you apply a voltage greater than this then there is a danger you will overcharge the battery. If DMS did not tell you this, they must have misunderstood the question as they for sure know and respect this fact and their charger solutions are clearly designed around this fact. I agree again with your definition of a conditioner. This is what I meant and I did not mean SHTC. However, and this is our key difference I guess, I don’t agree that overvoltage is automatically not an issue for Red Top - unless it is voltage regulated to this 13.8V level that is (like the DMS one). My opinion is that even a battery conditioner, even with only 100mA capability, could overcharge Red Top if it is used for long enough without a 13.8 voltage limit. Will it fry it in a matter of days or weeks ? No. But used pretty much constantly every time the car is in the garage it will more than likely have an impact on battery life. The only absolutely guaranteed way to have no danger of this is to use a voltage regulated device such as the 2 you quoted from DMS. I don’t believe these are SHTC, trickle chargers or conditioners (by the Halfords definition). On extended charging, their voltage is regulated to 13.8v, so I do not think it is unreasonable to call them voltage regulated chargers. Just to be clear, none of this argument applies to any battery other than one operating on thin plate pure lead technology i.e. Red Top & Odyssey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 16, 2004 Author Share Posted March 16, 2004 So, how long should I leave a £20 Halfords 300mA rated Draper trickle charger on for? Just answer zee questions pleaze. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Red I have answered your queries by annoting where appropriate and put them in RED to make it easy! Oh boy, I fear people must be losing the will to live watching as we slug this one out… hopefully you are As I said in my last post, agree that 15V is fine for limited period charging with SHTC or almost anything in fact. The critical word here is limited. DMS quote specific durations in their literature (also shows in their “feature” in the DT catalogue) as to how long you should safely leave such a charger connected for. It’s hours, not days. Don’t believe this is the issue we are talking about ? 10-12 hours, as I had already stated However, this 15V is absolutely not OK if you intend to leave the charging device connected for extended periods (per Steve’s original question). In this scenario I believe the voltage limit should be 13.8V. yes, as I had already stated In constant charging applications the manufacturers recommended float voltage for this product is 2.29vpc @ 20 deg C. This is the voltage that you need to apply if you want to keep the battery at top of charge. Any more and you may overcharge it and any less and you may undercharge it. This is why when both the DMS chargers you quoted the details of go to extended charging (“indefinite”) they clearly show a 13.8V voltage limit. Limiting to this voltage will mean the battery takes whatever current it wants and you should have no overcharge concerns whatsoever. the charger effectively becomes a "conditioner at this voltage. You need a better understanding of electronics to appreciate why this is If you apply a voltage greater than this then there is a danger you will overcharge the battery. If DMS did not tell you this, they must have misunderstood the question as they for sure know and respect this fact and their charger solutions are clearly designed around this fact. no - you misunderstand. I have already stated that at above 13.8v the time is limited - read my post again - it's quite clear on this I agree again with your definition of a conditioner. This is what I meant and I did not mean SHTC. However, and this is our key difference I guess, I don’t agree that overvoltage is automatically not an issue for Red Top - unless it is voltage regulated to this 13.8V level that is (like the DMS one). I would refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago My opinion is that even a battery conditioner, even with only 100mA capability, could overcharge Red Top if it is used for long enough without a 13.8 voltage limit. Will it fry it in a matter of days or weeks ? No. But used pretty much constantly every time the car is in the garage it will more than likely have an impact on battery life. The only absolutely guaranteed way to have no danger of this is to use a voltage regulated device such as the 2 you quoted from DMS. I don’t believe these are SHTC, trickle chargers or conditioners (by the Halfords definition). On extended charging, their voltage is regulated to 13.8v, so I do not think it is unreasonable to call them voltage regulated chargers. yes, they are voltage regulated chargers but not constant voltage chargers. Your lack of electronics knowledge is confusing you 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Edited by - Chris W on 16 Mar 2004 20:00:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Steve You can leave the Draper connected permanently with no damage. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 after all this talk of chargers, how does this fit in with a car alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Julian Exactly the point I made originally. Car alternators are NOT sophisticated Red Top chargers by any stretch of imagination. And for nearly all of its life, the battery will be charged by the car's alternator and therefore we have no control on what voltage is being used to charge it. In a lot of cases it may be less than 13.8v but in as many cases the alternator output may be as high as 14.5v. Alternators work (charging wise) by supplying a current that is proportional to the difference in alternator and battery voltage. You can see the huge charging current that flows for the first 30 secs to a minute or so after starting if you have an ammeter fitted (maybe as much as 15 Amps). As the battery voltage rises, it counteracts the alternator voltage and acts as a brake on the current delivered. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Campbell Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Ok .... I've read the thread and am a tad confused (admitedly a complete numpty when it comes to electricity... ... and all things mechanical come to that 😳!!) I think Chris W has answered my question in relation to Steve F's poser ... but to be sure ... I have standard Banner battery ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted March 17, 2004 Support Team Share Posted March 17, 2004 Steve Yes. And before poor Chris tears his hair out - the Draper item is a "Battery Conditioner" - a trickle charger is something different. This thread reminds me of many to which Peter Carmichael used to contribute. Peter was very very precise in his answers as is Chris W. Confusion arises when people are not precise. I know this from my job in IT - English is a very ambiguous language and we need to be very explicit in using English to answer questions correctly. Failure to be explicit results in the wrong answer. Shaun Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I use an Airflow battery conditioner that I leave connected all the time the car isn't on the road here and my battery is fine. If you leave it connected for extended periods it's a good idea to occasionally check the electrolyte level in the battery. These are quite popular among Se7en owners. There is a lot of conflicting information in this area from manufacturers of chargers, conditioners, battery manufacturers and car manufacturers - but this MAY be for litigation purposes. In my personal experience, the Airflow does the job required. BRG Summertime Brooklands SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alias Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Hi Chris, was wondering whether the 2 paragraphs below (direct quotes from the same post) were a little bit hyprocritical - planks and splinters in occular organs springs to mind 😬 What isn't done on Blatchat, except by social misfits like yourself, is deliberately insult, offend or antagonise other members. So climb back in your pram, stop worrying about the size of your d*ck (someone has to have the smallest) and ponder on the eloquence of what was expressed so articulately by the Anglo Saxons, "Go F*ck Yourself". Sorry - a bit off topic. One car - 1400 Supersport with 6 gears and clamshell wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Steve (Campbell) I agree with Shaun's response. A Draper conditioner or the Airflow version or anything purporting on the tin to do the same job (ie: can be connected indefinitely) will be exactly right for you. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 RobF Yes Rob... that was the whole point. It's called ironic humour. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Campbell Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Thanks. Rapid answers to numpty questions is what I need ! Happy blatting 😬 Steve Campbell P889 GRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 RobF ..........and I have never claimed that I am not a social misfit. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I have run a Red Top 8 as a running battery without problems. It doesn't really have enough oomph to start the car any more than once in an emergency after an off, and obviously I have been keen to keep it in good condition. This next bit might be relevant to Steve's original concerns... I have found that the most important thing is to ensure absolute battery isolation. Given that, the battery stays in great condition and doesn't need connecting to a conditioner. If you are pushing the limits with a small battery, you have to think about the loads you put on the battery during each usage. Did you run the car for some time after starting to replenish the charge drawn from starting? Did you sit in traffic with the lights on and the radiator fan on with a race alternator not giving enough charge because it only starts doing useful stuff at 2000rpm? If, for whatever reason, the battery is at less than full charge when you put the car away in the garage, then attach a decent conditioner (appropriate constant voltage type, or intelligent). If the battery has got a full charge, just be confident in your isolation switch and it will stay in top nick. Red Top claim 2 years storage with a full charge and my experience backs this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyslr Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Slightly off-topic, but interested in "absolute isolation" point. I believe I have some minor drain somewhere in the system (and I don't use the immobiliser so not sure what would be on). The terminals also produce a tiny spark when connected back to the battery if I've removed, including when engine cut-off key is removed (ie there seems to be current flowing, albeit small). As per Peter's comment, this is a bad thing. I also have a number of direct to battery wires which is not so clever, but seems to have developed that way. What are the recommendations / fixes for complete isolation? Any gadgets/ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I concur with Peter. One of the 'features' of 'Red Tops' is that they hold charge over time. I have an SBS30 that wasn't charged for a year and didn't need it when wanted. Given that I don't see any need for 'conditioning' or 'trickle charging' unless you have a problem with the car's electrics or an immobiliser/alarm. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Jimmy When you say you "don't use" the immobiliser, do you mean you don't ARM it or it's not connected? The former case will still draw current. If it's "not connected", what have you done physically to achieve this? Although you have a cut-off key, many are wired with a small fuse to allow enough current to flow to power the immobiliser or a clock for example even with the cut-off key out. You can check if there is any current with the cut-off key out, by disconnecting the battery neagtive and inserting a milliammeter between the battery negative and the disconnected earth cable. Clearly you should get zero reading if there is no leakage circuit. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Edited by - Chris W on 18 Mar 2004 14:42:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 Thanks Peter, That's pretty much how I have expereinced the 15. It does have enough oomph for several starts and as you say does not seem to discharge. I always batt isolate and have nothing else connected to drain the batt. Since going TB's starting has been one button push and 3-4 secs later shes running. Since I fitted the Redtop I do have to rev her to about 1500 rpm before the charging light cuts out and I assume charging starts. This has always been part of my starting routine since the redtop. Anyone else experienced this. I have a pretty new Alternator since the old one sheared a lug. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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