Foam baffle / windage plate / dry & wet sump queries??

[SLR No.77]

Ok, so this ones been done to death previously, but with somewhat inconclusive results. Therefore can anyone give the definitive answer on the following points:

 

1. In a wet sump application, would removing the foam baffle aid return of oil to the sump therefore avoiding oil starvation at the pickup pipe? There's a very fine line between under and over filling.

 

2. Would the windage plate be best left in place without the foam?

 

3. In a dry sump application, is there a windage plate fitted - and if so is it the same as the wet one?

 

Stu.

 

 

[F355GTS]

stu

 

can answer number 3, my Dry sumped Minister VHPD had a windage plate fitted however I seem ot remember Peter C. saying it wasn't a requirement?, it's still here although a bit dented, I think it's the same as the wet sump ones but if you want it to compare or straighten and fit then you are welcome to it

 

Mark

[SLR No.77]

Cheers Mark,

 

I'll take it if that's ok - I'm currently trying to build 2 engines and I'm short of a few bits anyway Let me know how much you need to cover your costs of sending it.

 

Stu.

[F355GTS]

Stu

 

e-mail me your address and I'll ship it, next time you're making a donation to Ntl add a few quid on

 

Mark

[Paul McKenzie]

Stu,

While you have the engines apart why don't you have a word with Dave Brooks who I know has produced good baffled sumps for K's without the foam, like he's done for my VX. He does this by extensive modding of the windage plates, and it's necessary to have the engine out to do it.

 

Cheers,

Paul

[Dave McCulloch]

Paul

 

Do you have some more details of what he does? Is this a substitute for apollo or an "as well as" belt and braces mod.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Sheds Moderator]

Hi Stu,

I thought the DS I sold you already had a windage plate in the bottom, or is this another part? Not having had my (running) engine in bits I don't know what is/isn't in there.

 

Hope your various builds are going OK. As for me, mine's getting prettier. Slowly, but the rate of improvement is still faster than the overall rate of decay...

[Paul McKenzie]

Dave,

He welds bits on to the windage tray. He's done a lot of this stuff for rally cars and race series which are not allowed dry sumping. It wouldn't substitute for an Apollo as it won't achieve any deaeration of the oil. The point is to try and keep the oil pickup immersed in oil.

IMHO it's certainly not a complete answer like a DS system, but it's a reasonable half way house, and gets rid of the foam baffle, and the hassle and cost of replacing it and the gaskets.

 

Paul

[SLR No.77]

Notquitesooldbatteredsupersport - the plate in the bottom of the sump is a baffle that stops the oil moving out of the drain channel - the one I am reffering to is the one that sandwiches the foam to the bottom of the bearing ladder. I understand this to be called a windage plate?

 

Someone answer the questions ..... pleeeeaaaaaasssse !

 

Stu.

[Paul McKenzie]

Stu,

1. Obviously yes it will return oil easier, but your shotened pick-up will need to be lengthened and you'll still knacker the engine from oil starvation on cornering

2. Windage plate does same job with/without foam

3. Doesn't matter, as far as I can see, but it is removed for the VX application and I think for the K pace DS application.

 

What you trying to do, Mate?

 

Paul

[SLR No.77]

Paul,

 

Foam is above plate which is above pick-up pipe. Pick-up pipe is pressed hard on bottom of sump - I'd need to cut a hole in the sump if I lengthened the pipe

 

It's specifically details regarding the K that I'm after.

 

Stu.

[Paul McKenzie]

Oh, so on the K there's a lump of foam between the windage plate and the bearing ladder? What's that for then Is that in the standard Rover set-up, or is it a Caterham mod?

 

Paul

[SLR No.77]

Caterham mod. As far as I'm aware it is to reduce the frothing of the oil - I think it has sod all effect on stabilising the oil during cornering.

 

Stu.

[SLR No.77]

Can anybody out there add anything?

 

Stu.

[tom7]

Stu,

One of the guys at the Worcs area runs his with a QED foam baffle.

This is basically a huge lump of foam that *fills* the sump pan. i.e - remove sump, cut lump of foam so that its level with top of pan, cut 3" hole for oil pick-up, throw Caterham foam thingy away and hey presto! no oil surge issues.

He swears by it, after 5000 miles of touring and numerous track days / sprints he recorded no break up issues and the foam was as good as the day he fitted it. He has never had *any* surge issues.

Reckons the price is about £20. I'll be giving QED a call myself tomorrow an asking them about it. I trust the guy who tells me this, you may have met Pete Cox when you visited us recently?

 

Tom

[RESOLVIWOLF]

FOAM = THE DEVIL

 

 

 

[tom7]

I probably meant mesh rather than foam

[SLR No.77]

Tom - I guess the engine in question is the Scholar converted one that Peter was building?

[tom7]

Stu,

No he is dry sump (and 210bhp and sequential gearbox and....)with that one. He installed the QED mesh *from new* on his original 160 bhp wet sump & apollo engine.

 

Tom

[JP]

My theory for what it's worth (and I'd be pleased for an alternative explanation if I'm wrong)...I don't think the baffle has any effect on surge or preventing the pick-up pipe picking up air. I suspect the foam delays return of oil to the sump, therefore keeping the bottom end bathed on oil for longer so that it matters less when the pick-up picks up air....any thoughts - am I talking a load of boll***s?

[SLR No.77]

There is certainly a line of thought that it prevents oil returning freely to the sump. However air in the oil will eventually knacker the bearings. I'm pretty convinced it is only there to break down foaming on the top of the oil, which it doesn't do very effectively. Next time my sumps open, the foam's coming out and I'm going to try it for a while with only the plate. That is unless I muster the remaining bits i need for a dry-sump in the meantime!

 

Stu.

[Peter Carmichael]

JP, bathing the bottom end in oil doesn't help where it is needed - in the working surfaces of the bearings.

 

The foam cannot possibly help with surge, so can only be something to reduce foaming. Its effectiveness is marginal. It does at least do its de-foaming act on the sump side of the pump - a good intention. Whether it does the de-foaming in any way effectively is questionable.

 

As with all such things there can be a load of different theories put around, each of which only gets disproven when engines start blowing up. "Proving" that an oil solution solves a problem is more difficult and involves rather better measurements than you get from the standard gauges. The best solution is obviously a properly designed dry sump.

 

Back to Stu's original questions...

 

1. No it won't aid oil getting to the pickup. The de-foaming is probably a good thing. Having the foam break up in the sump is obviously a bad thing.

2. The windage plate is sensible in a wet sump set up.

3. In my opinion there is no need for a windage plate in the dry sump setup.

[Peter Carmichael]

Just had another thought about differences between the wet and the dry sump setup. In the wet sump, the wolverine sump gasket has a wide flange that is another attempt to prevent oil sloshing around. Caterham recommend silicone sealing the dry sump, so no gasket and no windage plate effect.

[JP]

Cheers PC

[Mick Day]

So Peter I get the impression you're saying the foam just reduces aeration (foaming). Therefore the foam has no part to play if an Apollo is fitted.